Concerned About Direction Orbx is Heading

[KORDATC]

As the title says, I’m concerned about the direction Orbx is heading.  I used to light up like a kid at Christmas when lain would post new photos on the preview page of new Orbx products.  Now, however, w/ a few notable exceptions, I rarely get that feeling anymore.  I feel like priorities have shifted quite dramatically, and as a result, quality has suffered quite noticeably.  With as much hype as MSFS had gotten from Orbx when first released, it could be reasonably expected that we’d see a huge increase in realism/detail in sceneries.  Instead, each new release (again w/ a few exceptions) disappoints.  For example, SBA had custom jetways in FSX/P3D (albeit not working).  We were told 10+ years ago, Orbx would be implementing working jetways into their sceneries.  Still hasn’t happened in P3D.  What do we get now in the ‘sim of the future’?  We get out-of-place default jetways.  SBA has them, the newly released Ketchikan has them.  This is no solution.  It takes away from the realism/ambience.  I’ve heard the talking point that custom jetways are an SDK issue.  Doesn’t seem to stop FSDT, FlightBeam, LVFR, FlyTampa, JustSim, etc. from all implementing them, so I don’t buy that excuse anymore.  They should be standard from a company with a history such as yours.  

 

I used to think of Orbx as a leader in the flight sim industry.  Your sceneries used to all be state-of-the-art.  What happened?!  It just feels  like many products have had some PBR textures slapped on, maybe a few default jetways, and then repackaged as a new product.  Meanwhile, other developers are re-building their products from the ground up w/ all of the latest goodies (3D interiors, custom jetways, more ground clutter, etc.).  I realize PAKT is only $6.58, but still… Orbx was a once top-notch developer.  I don’t want to see Orbx become a 2nd-rate bargain developer.  I want to see innovation/quality again.  I would gladly pay $15 or more for a good quality PAKT, but am hesitant to pay even $6 for a sub-par version, quality-wise.  
 

I’m concerned, and I desperately hope Orbx returns to what it once was.  

Edited August 27, 2021 by KORDATC

[t_j]

I would agree, we also don't seem to hear from the devs much any more, the likes of Jarrad Marshall have disappeared from these forums...the direction has definitely changed, the company has expanded significantly and it has lost some of what made it great, it used to be "by flight simmers for flight simmers" (maybe that just didnt make any money though). Seems a quantity over quality approach and business model has been adopted.

[Matthi25]

I totally agree. So far I have bought almost all Orbx sceneries for three flight simulators. The quality has suffered a lot since Msfs 2020. I was particularly disappointed by Ketchikan, although I was so hoping for the release. Others have made the airport much better. The one from Orbx seems almost loveless. I hope Orbx returns to its old quality.

[flsm (Frank)]

I just wish customers would objectively describe bugs and wishes without subjectively commenting on companies/staff and, just for the record, before this thread is closed, I continue to be pretty happy with Orbx.  Cheers.

[Doug Sawatzky]

Hi

 

I would like to keep this thread going, so hopefully it can stay constructive and civil.

 

 

[KORDATC]

3 minutes ago, flsm (Frank) said:

I just wish customers would objectively describe bugs and wishes without subjectively commenting on companies/staff and, just for the record, before this thread is closed, I continue to be pretty happy with Orbx.  Cheers.

This is the ‘general’ forum, not the support forum.  I haven’t bought PAKT, based on the quality shown in the product images.  If I bought it, they would most definitely get a post in the correct support forums.  But, in the ‘general’ forum, I feel I am completely within my lane to point out a ‘general’ decline in scenery quality.

[KORDATC]

1 minute ago, Doug Sawatzky said:

Hi

 

I would like to keep this thread going, so hopefully it can stay constructive and civil.

 

 

I appreciate that a lot.  I don’t mean to be condescending, it’s not my intention.  I just really want Orbx to be at the forefront of the industry.  I want Orbx to be proud of every product they stamp their name on.

[JohnnyJohnJohn]

All I know is, that the reason you don't see alot of what was in Orbx airports for MSFS like details like falling leaves from trees, etc, is because those items don't seem to be supported by this new sim as of yet.   Will we in the future?  Who knows, but we'll see. 

[Bullfox]

MSFS is like a gold rush for developers.  They all want to get there first with the most.  I suspect quality may suffer in the rush. I have not gone into MFSF partly because I have only been in P3D since May when I finally got my new computer built.  I have added a significant amount of Orbz scenery since then in P3D and am mostly happy with the results.  So I am in no rush to try MSFS.  It still seems to have problems that need ironing out.  I am waiting for A2A to start producing planes for MFSF.  When and if that happens I would take that as a sign that MSFS in on the right track.

[KORDATC]

5 minutes ago, JohnnyJohnJohn said:

All I know is, that the reason you don't see alot of what was in Orbx airports for MSFS like details like falling leaves from trees, etc, is because those items don't seem to be supported by this new sim as of yet.   Will we in the future?  Who knows, but we'll see. 

It’s not even that which I’m most concerned about.  Rather, things that should be standard in all new releases.  PAKT, for example (since it is what prompted my post) is missing hangars, has a default jetway plunked down on the airport, and seems to use the default MSFS ground vehicles.  In the past, Orbx always had their own custom ground vehicles.  

[Matthi25]

31 minutes ago, KORDATC said:

I appreciate that a lot.  I don’t mean to be condescending, it’s not my intention.  I just really want Orbx to be at the forefront of the industry.  I want Orbx to be proud of every product they stamp their name on.

I fully agree with you

[Andrew Hunter-Graham]

It's an interesting topic to discuss, but we just need to be mindful for the topic not to become a bashing fest of @Orbx because the discussion will not last.

 

Things change as the years go by. Seemingly a lot has changed since the heydays of Orbx being a leader in scenery development and improvement for FSX and P3D.

 

I can't quite put my finger on it, but I do feel that things have changed and I cant say it hasn't been on my mind in recent times.

 

Two points to consider:

1) Ambitions as a company can and do change or split in two (in house development and partnership) There are positives and negatives to this.

2) Highly productive talent and experience coming and going, it's inevitable, but has a dramatic impact. At times it is hugely positive, other times it comes as a huge loss and has a negative impact.

 

On a product such as Ketchikan (PAKT) and even Juneau (PAJN) for MSFS I think transparency is key. Both were originally developed for FSX/P3D by Russ White, from memory he is no longer developing for flight simulation, which is a big loss to the community! I don't think he is the only one to move on.

 

So I imagine there are serious limitations around these products in MSFS, without the original developer passionately going to the ends of the world and back to achieve insane quality.  

 

It feels like the "Throwback classics range" has come out of nowhere. What is it, what should the community expect, why is Orbx going down this path, is it something that the community wants and can respect or does it do more harm than good?

 

MSFS

 

FSX/P3D

 

I think there is immense pressure right now and no doubt it is a substantial challenge to manage.

 

Historically Orbx has built a lot of trust and respect over the years, giving them a brilliant reputation within the flight sim community. It's not impossible to become too reliant on that and loose sight of what the community still values.

 

In saying that, a lot of what we see in scenery development today has been spurred on by the high standard that Orbx sets.

 

MSFS is so incredibly young, in the scheme of what Orbx has achieved over so many years with other simulators.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Seanmo]

I think it would have been better if Orbx had made clear that it's Throwback Thursday line of airports are low-effort ports from obsolete sims and priced accordingly. I warned that by not communicating this they ran the risk of tarnishing their brand. Perhaps now they will start to see that it is unfortunately happening. It doesn't half help that there happens to be a well-done PAKT already out there to compare this too.

 

I am (mostly) happy with the Orbx scenery that I purchased from Central and shown in my signature and know to stay away from the Throwback Thursday releases now, but I want to see Orbx succeed and I think that by not having a better name for their budget line of airports they are doing their reputation a disservice. If that is considered "bashing" then I am in the wrong place.

[John Dow]

Just my 2c worth: Orbx started as a collective of developers who were hobbyists and were offered a way to basically get pocket money for their efforts. The model was unsustainable for a business, which Orbx has become. In addition, MSFS seems to have constraints on what can be put in to a scenery and what doesn't work. Put all that together and it may appear that standards have been allowed to drop, but I think it's more of a case of reality catching up with dreams as the flight sim marketplace matures into a fully sustainable model. 

[Anna Cicognani]

Hi all - in reading this thread, and others not in this forum, there are a few things I feel need to be clarified:

 

1. the Throwback Thursday series is something Ed Correia (who is an Orbx "veteran" as you know) is putting together as a series of ported airports. The quality is not expected to be exceptional or groundbreaking, and perhaps that is a mistake, but we are making them super cheap for people to bring content they loved in FSX and P3D to MSFS. There is quite an amount of work going into these, so we still sell them (even though cheaply) to recover some of the costs. Believe me, we make zero money from them - unfortunately - but at least we pay off the developers so they can feed themselves a bit longer;

 

2. Jarrad Marshall, much loved and respected by the whole community, is taking a long break. He has not announced yet when he will be back, but when he is ready, we will welcome him back with open arms;

 

3. Our team in Havant, UK (which still includes Russ White, incidentally) was set up around June 2019 and has some high quality and talented people who are getting better and better at understanding flight simming and what kind of standards are required. It is not a quick process to train someone to those levels, but that is a journey we decided to take;

 

4. We have now a much bigger team compared to 3 years ago (by a factor of at least 4), and many are now full time employees instead of being hobbists, so - yes - we release more content than before, except it just looks we are doing things "faster," but in reality the speed is coming from the fact we have more people in the Company;

 

5. Around the direction of the Company, I have spoken about it elsewhere, but in brief, we are striving to excel at making add-ons. We recently launched our first aircraft as a bit of an experiment to see if we *could* actually do it, and we love the result. We will do more of that!

 

There are some very true things in this thread, and some myths as well. But one thing that is coming through (for me at least) is the love for the Company, what it stands for and the desire to keep Orbx at the forefront of innovation and quality. Exactly where we want to be!

 

Yes, the entry of MSFS has created a lot of content dilution - just check how many more devs / creators have joined the ranks in the MS Marketplace! - so it is hard when one of our devs releases a product and it gets lost in the noise, or gets so criticised that discourages people to stay in the industry. This is true for everyone, I think.

 

Constructive criticism is always very welcome as like all humans we make mistakes and think something could be great, but it misses the mark, and sometimes you just don't know why.

 

BTW despite some slightly unsavory comments made ;-), we will keep this thread open so we can have a robust (and I hope constructive) discussion around these topics, and what it is that makes Orbx great, today and tomorrow - not what it did 2 years ago, that environment does not exist any longer.

We are trying to adapt to what we can work with now, and with that, invent the future. It would be great to do this as a community as much as a Company.

 

Cheers!

[Jon Clarke]

Very interesting topic.

 I became part of a very limited and small Orbx community when I bought the first Orbx addons back in 2009 which I believe were for FSX.

I have remained an interested party ever since and over the years became more involved on the forums assisting in helping resolving Orbx addon issues especially initially in P3D and then XP11. This was purely as a member of the Orbx community and fellow customer. It was the "community" and the friendly helpful nature of the members that was the main attraction in comparison to some other sim forums. There was a bond between a band of simmers.

As time passed we got more customers as we developed more addons for sims which were varying in maturity, unlike MSFS is at present.

More support and products were developed for more sims, some in a large degree and others like AF2 and Dovetail to a lesser degree depending I assume on market demand.

We now have 3 mainstay sims, P3D, XP11 and recently MSFS.

To put into perspective how detailed addons can be we need to take into account the maturity and capabilities of the sim in relation to the details that an addon can incorporate at a certain time of the sim's development.

P3D is basically  FSX (on steroids) regarding maturity and much advanced development since Lockheed-Martin bought the rights to it. It is now an extremely mature sim which allows many advanced aspects to be included in addons.

XP was only relatively recently added to the Orbx family for addon development and that sim is soon to be on version 12, so is also a vastly mature sim with differing qualities to it's competitors and also allows more detailed addons to be produced.

MSFS is on sim update 5 of version 1 with an unfinished SDK, changes in every update that also affect developers' addons. Too many to mention to date.

So to compare details in P3D addons to MSFS addons in the current state of MSFS development and limited maturity is not an apples to apples comparison.

 The one thing I do hope that will never ever be lost in the Orbx forums is the "community" spirit which is unique in this modern world of forums and other social media platforms.

[wolfko]

 

5 hours ago, Andrew Hunter-Graham said:

It's an interesting topic to discuss, but we just need to be mindful for the topic not to become a bashing fest of @Orbx because the discussion will not last.

 

Things change as the years go by. Seemingly a lot has changed since the heydays of Orbx being a leader in scenery development and improvement for FSX and P3D.

 

I can't quite put my finger on it, but I do feel that things have changed and I cant say it hasn't been on my mind in recent times.

 

Two points to consider:

1) Ambitions as a company can and do change or split in two (in house development and partnership) There are positives and negatives to this.

2) Highly productive talent and experience coming and going, it's inevitable, but has a dramatic impact. At times it is hugely positive, other times it comes as a huge loss and has a negative impact.

 

On a product such as Ketchikan (PAKT) and even Juneau (PAJN) for MSFS I think transparency is key. Both were originally developed for FSX/P3D by Russ White, from memory he is no longer developing for flight simulation, which is a big loss to the community! I don't think he is the only one to move on.

 

So I imagine there are serious limitations around these products in MSFS, without the original developer passionately going to the ends of the world and back to achieve insane quality.  

 

It feels like the "Throwback classics range" has come out of nowhere. What is it, what should the community expect, why is Orbx going down this path, is it something that the community wants and can respect or does it do more harm than good?

 

MSFS

 

FSX/P3D

 

I think there is immense pressure right now and no doubt it is a substantial challenge to manage.

 

Historically Orbx has built a lot of trust and respect over the years, giving them a brilliant reputation within the flight sim community. It's not impossible to become too reliant on that and loose sight of what the community still values.

 

In saying that, a lot of what we see in scenery development today has been spurred on by the high standard that Orbx sets.

 

MSFS is so incredibly young, in the scheme of what Orbx has achieved over so many years with other simulators.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, KORDATC said:

It’s not even that which I’m most concerned about.  Rather, things that should be standard in all new releases.  PAKT, for example (since it is what prompted my post) is missing hangars, has a default jetway plunked down on the airport, and seems to use the default MSFS ground vehicles.  In the past, Orbx always had their own custom ground vehicles.  

 

What would you have expected for US$6.59 | €5,60 | £4.81 | AU$9.09?

Come on guys, you are comparing these kinda products with € 35 airports.

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by wolfko

[TymK]

I think the main takeaway as regards the "Throwback Thursday" series is that it should be appropriately labelled in the store. The nature of these products may be obvious to us obsessive forum lurkers/posters, but to someone just visiting the store, there's no real indication (apart from the price, of course) that this is an "economy" line of products. The phrase "Throwback classics range" is only really meaningful to forum "insiders".

 

One more thing... While I don't generally mind the "economy" aspect of these products as long as the price reflects that, I'd hate to see some of the more iconic airports take that route. I'm happy with Fall City, for example, but I'm a bit bummed that the "Throwback" release pretty much means that no 'properly' revamped PAKT will come from Orbx...

 

Regards,

Tym

Edited August 27, 2021 by TymK

[John Heaton]

 "we will keep this thread open so we can have a robust (and I hope constructive) discussion around these topics, and what it is that makes Orbx great, today and tomorrow - not what it did 2 years ago, that environment does not exist any longer.

 

We are trying to adapt to what we can work with now, and with that, invent the future. It would be great to do this as a community as much as a Company.

 

Anna - firstly - what could be construed as my provenance for what follows- and why I can't agree that the past does not  exist any longer

 

I came into Marketing in the early 60s via Drucker and a diploma via Manchester/Harvard - have around 700 PPL hours - mostly in my own PA 32 and Seneca Twin engine - and since 1980 - the Lord only knows how many simming hours in Commodore 64 to MS2020 - and since 2007 - most of it in Just Flight and Orbx - again - most of both - real and simmed - below 10000 ft in VFR and IFR - and a couple of million air miles around the World on Business in both Prop and Jet airliners - above 10000 feet - and it is this figure - 10000 ft that I believe is the marketing key to your word - Adapt

It is my belief - that Orbx should look to the past as to why it was/is and can still be a successful power in the future of fight simming world - in BOTH PC and Consoles - and still see 2 markets - profitably.

 

Orbx made money for years in the market pre 2020 in 2 sims - and still can. This new 2020 market a is new sim and high volume due to the developement of the simming community - and now the console when you sort that out

 

Orbx - from its earliest days of coloured Australian regions - has given us both high and low flight experiences with its Global and Vector softwares all over the World

 

To satisfy those amongst us - that wanted to fly low and slow  - VFR and IFR - in basic P3D and X Plane sims - in better than default scenery - by giving us - only 2/3 years ago - True Earth and we lowly VFR flyers in the UK and West Coast USA a "photographic" experience of sorts - and we were happy with this developement.
Orbx started to go a step further by producing Cityscapes and particular attached airports 
 
(Actually it was Just Flight who first brought out the 1st VFR Photo software and I used that back in 2007)

 

Whilst a number of Orbx Regions were there - and increasing in number - it gave those of us with our thoughts in the "above the navel region" of 10000 feet - and a number of Aircraft developers - the Market for the devotees of "Tube" flying - high levels of skill and terrestial navigation - which low and slow - VFR didnt need - leading in turn to highly developed accuracy of a particular type of aircraft developement - The "Study Aircraft"
This was - and indeed still is - for sometime to come - the province of P3D and X-Plane.

 

There were still - and still are enough aircraft - vintage airliners - or Biz Jets to satisfy - the Gap between 10K and 20K feet - to need the Regional scenery on cloudless local-city to city-inter country - regional flights.

 

All these aircraft - large and small - needed somewhere to take off and land. Orbx made an additional name for itself by creating differing kinds of airport - in Australia - then UK - and USA. We were happy with what we got as long as there was a runway to land on - and latterly -parking bays - lights - and other airport paraphilia.

 

 2 years ago the peace was shattered by the Mighty Microsoft offering a revolution in flight simming - and in many aspects - they have! - and most of it is - Real time photogrammetry scenery below 10000 feet - and needing a quantum PC to run it - a super internet - and surprise -surprise - they produced a console to do just that - a super PC.

Now 12 months later and countless addons from the likes of Orbx - updates - additional aircraft - hordes of payware and freeware developers - we have actually got a sim that has a great future. We await to see if the X BOX sim survives - without those same developers - including Orbx - by having the install access - that has made the PC so successful- i.e. the community file method.
 
Now - some are wanting airports that glow with internal - (WHY?) - external - bits and pieces that only apply to the tube aircraft - that may be coming someday. I refer to travelling gates - external bays and markings - service trucks etc. The internals probably are to satisfy the Virtual Communtity via the MS controller enabling tours around the buildings etc.

 

Personally - I also enjoy my Flights above 25000 feet in my freeware 787 - 380 - and 777 over Orbx regions and looking forward to more of them. Examples have been  - Heathrow to Capetown via Nairobi in a VC 10 - Heathrow to Perth in a 787 via Qantas - and yesterday Heathrow to Darwin - recently announced by Qantas - over a completely different regions that Orbx have promised to give us - Asia - Russia -SE Asia

.

What does 2020 need to give us the flights above 10000 - apart from fluffy clouds -----simply nothing that P3D/X Plane does'nt give us now - except maybe an improved photogrametry Earth from 25000 plus - if we needed such a benefit.

 

Some companies are talking about producing study aircraft for 2020 - but we have  seen one only added so far. The aircraft supplied to the tube Market by Asobo - have not yet been seen to perform in said quality.

 

Below 10000 - 2020 is way ahead in scenery -thanks to 3rd parties-although periodical upgrades seem to provide more problems - whilst the Asobo aircraft offerings - don't really compete with the 3rd party addons - at least to long term flight simmers - they suffice for the majority - and more so - for the Part Time Console pilots
  
In a nutshell - to answer the OP and Anna - my research - such as it is - shows 2 distinct Orbx markets - that Orbx is not about changing it's attitude to long term / old customers and P3D type work - but serving the market needs of 2 - (maybe - 3 if we analyze the console market a bit more) - differing "Heights" - literally !!

Orbx has apparently become 2 companies in the past 2 years - the older team in OZ trying to satisfy their old market customers - P3D / XPlane minded - and the Brand new UK mob shooting for the newer volume market.

 

The older market is very much still alive - especially amongst the purists - which after all - that's what we all probably were Pre June 2019 when the crash that changed us - happened

 

So Orbx please note - that the thousands of us around at that time are still here - although somewhat tempted by that below 10000 vision 2020 is giving us - and look forward to you realising - that the same exists for regional scenery above 10000 - Near and SEAsia  - Oceana  in particular - and little airports for our VFR/IFR flying you provided in the past - for 2020 - esp the freeware ones - speaking as an old age pensioner

[flsm (Frank)]

Maybe Orbx could start an on-going Bug List and Wish List with votes like in MSFS so as to capture the needed, useful, objective comments that can then be prioritised and acted on, or rejected, or postponed, or whatever, rather than more maybe not so helpful subjective discussion.  Cheers.

[johnobono]

As a customer who has purchased a majority of the Xplane & MSFS catalogue from Orbx & who has been a fan of their past work, I have to say I sadly tend to agree with majority of the sentiment of the original post & am also finding my purchasing habits change from an almost instant purchase of an Orbx release to a close scrutiny & often skip of a scenery, to maybe purchase at a future discount rate, or a “lets see if another Dev does a version” -  mostly for airport releases.

 

This has come after a couple of recent buyers remorse purchases where I’ve admittedly been a little underwhelmed.

 

 

I think part of the reason is that MSFS has clearly been a step up visually & these are (mostly) aesthetic addons. When I look back on my XPlane sceneries (which I’ve had to do of late as MSFS has become almost unplayable for me since SU5), I have to admit that what I once thought impressive I now consider dated – I think this is just human nature when you go back to something older from something newer / more advanced. That’s not to say I haven’t enjoyed going back to Xplane (& the more stable / better aircraft/IFR experience) for a period.

 

 

In MSFS, I’ve recently been impressed by some of the offerings of NZA, Impulse, AUScene, Pilot Plus, as well as a few select others, so there is a bar that has been set in terms of what can be achieved within the sim at this stage & my expectations have changed accordingly.

Most of these have been priced in the mid $20 – low $30 Aussie Dollar Bucks range (i.e 12-20 Euro or 15–25 USD) & I am personally prepared to pay this for this level of quality.

I can only express my opinion as a customer who has purchased many a product in the past & who will continue to buy MSFS sceneries that make the most of the sim & elevate the immersion & simming experience further.

I can’t profess to speak for all or to understand the commercial viability of producing these types of products, suffice to say that I’m sure a lot of hours work goes into producing them by a dedicated group of people.

The scale / # of sales would likely be a key factor in whether they go beyond a labour of love/passion project to breaking even or turning a profit. Ultimately Orbx is a business that needs to stay viable in order to survive / thrive.

It is Orbx’s prerogative about where they want to place themselves in the market going forward & they also have commercial realities to face (& presumably a larger cost base than the smaller devs).

 

 

I’m sure it’s also difficult to balance quality & performance.

I have a high spec PC & personally want to see sceneries that push the boundaries of the platform & offer more bells & whistles, but others might not & want better framerates all-round instead. Without a mechanism for allowing low-medium-ultra dynamic graphics options for sceneries themselves, that balancing act will always be there.

 

 

I think we also have to accept that the SDK for MSFS has been an evolving challenge for developers who are forced to revisit & patch their sceneries at an extra time/financial cost to remain functional.

 

 

We should acknowledge that Orbx are being responsive, open & engaged. It must be a brutal experience having your work critiqued on a public forum & so we should always remain respectful & constructive, which for the most part (on this stream at least) seems to be the case.

 

 

Clearly a lot of the passion stems from some brand loyalty to Orbx & wanting it to succeed on the platform. Things are clearly changing in the industry in new & exciting ways. I too wish to see Orbx succeed in this market as it finds/redefines its place.

 

 

To end on a positive note, I have still enjoyed some of the Orbx products in MSFS, namely some of the Cityscences (Sydney is a personal favourite) & I also like the direction with the regions & hope to see more soon as I feel these really flesh out the world & increase the immersion even more.

 

 

Regards to All,

Johno

Edited August 27, 2021 by johnobono
Typo

[gaab]

Warning to the readers - I intent to stay with P3D and stay away from online systems (as long as possible....)

 

I discovered flight sim and FSX during a visit to "Musée du Bourget" (LFBO) - I had a hand on session during which I almost succeeded to land the FSX DC3
It was like realizing an old dream and very quickly I discovered Orbx with Global, Vector and Open_LC EU.

A lot of other developers were proposing large airports, but Orbx was occupying a very unique market with regions and small airports (with a lot of attention to details AND including seasons).
I bought all the regions and more than 90 such airports.  But since several years, even before the MSFS vogue, I saw Orbx evolving, bringing large airports and TrueEarth (abandonning seasons except for NL - the only one I have bought), becoming also a distributor, loosing what made it different.

I keep still checking the sparse P3D creations which does not duplicate other devs large airports (and eagerly waiting the next OpenLC opus, and the one time promised remaining Channel Islands, just to name some futur instant buy).

I am missing the poetry of landclass and seasons and do hope that there is still a market for this niche, and that Orbx will still allocate some resources (not a large market, but able to provide some revenues).

But I start feeling lonely... 

 

Gérard

[ravenn22]

Also, if you miss the initial marketing push - "Throwback Thursday" products are slotted in with all the regional full quality scenery and only the "too good to be true" price tips you off to take another look at what you're getting.

Personally, I have no problem waiting another 6 months, 1 year or paying $15-20 for full quality airports that are optimized for and take advantage of MSFS features, I couldn't see ever buying a "stop-gap" airport - hell, I even avoid freeware since I'm super picky about what fills up my HD and community folder.

I'm really looking forward to my favorite Orbx airports from FSX/P3D making their way onto the new platform - but they really need to be properly updated and optimized and I don't mind waiting / paying for that. ( updated roadmap would be great, so we know to wait and not buy whichever dev rushed out to recreate a popular Orbx P3D airport )

Thanks @Anna Cicognani and @Jon Clarke for replies and transparency!

[BradB]

Being a old age pensioner , I have to be honest I don’t purchase as much Orbx scenery as I use to . Having made the

switch last August to MSFS I really enjoy just flying around the World low and slow . Individual airports really don’t 

make that a real priority for me . I will continue to buy the mesh scenery and regional packs but for me it’s the 

AC that I will spend money on . So it’s exciting to see all the AC vendors coming to Central . 
 

Cheers

John

[wolfko]

Oh yes, I remember the good old Orbx days when PNW was released as first region outside of Australia and after this we had to wait many, many months until the first Orbx stand alone airport for PNW had been released, one of the masterpieces of Andreas and Heiko. I can't remember, if it was either Darrington or Concrete. And then, again many months later, the other airport, Concrete or Darrington was released. So litterally it was one region and two airports which had been released by Orbx within about one year's periode then.

I am not sure if I like to have those "happy" days again.

 

This said, we all were exited about Neil Hill's superbly enhanced airports, which have been included in the regions and enjoyed them very much. These enhanced airports have been good enough for us for a long, long time, but now we are complaining about 5 $ Thursday Throwback products, which even have a much higher standard than the enhanced airports had.

 

And yes, like @BradB I do not buy as many airports any more like I did before MSFS. But this is not due to Orbx quality, but only, because I now fly the whole world with MSFS, literally every day in another area of the world, where I have not flown before. So why buying an airport, which I will use only once or twice, because the next day I will fly in another part of the world?

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by wolfko

[TigerTigerM]

A few observations.

Prior to MSFS, in FSX & P3D, Orbx could run the 'Wedding Cake' model.

Layer upon layer of purchasable add ons. (Check the Product page Global section to see what I mean)

MSFS has pulled that rug out from under them to a certain extent as many 'layers' are provided in MSFS out of the box.

So new ways of creating revenue have needed to be found. The Partnerships arrangement running off the back of Orbx Central is a good move, IMHO. Clip the ticket as a Partner product goes out the door.

But MSFS, with its legion of freeware scenery & airport creators must be a nightmare for Orbx.

There are some very creative people churning out freeware that can match payware, & it must be galling to have a team working on a payware airport for say 6 months & find someone has beaten you to the punch via releasing a good freeware version before the Orbx version comes on to the market.

In that respect Orbx may wish to consider an 'in the pipeline' section of the forum which outlines the airports & scenery & anything else being developed for release in the next, say, 12 months, which could alert Orbx customers & encourage them to hold off from an alternative source purchase, if the quality is there! (Quality - very important)

(I suspect there might be something like this now, but it doesn't hit me in the face on the forums. Perhaps it needs more prominence or I need new glasses) [2021 Roadmap - I should read that]

Finally, it may behoove Orbx to run some sort of survey in its forums asking readers to rank what they look for in an airfield that triggers them to make that purchase.

The buildings, weathering, clutter, moving objects such as tarmac vehicles, shuttle trains, interiors, A1 aircraft, detailed surroundings encompassing the airport,  POI on the approach paths, tarmac/taxiway markings?

And so on. 

TTM

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by TigerTigerM

[KORDATC]

Anna, I really appreciate the response and the transparency.  I have bought more sceneries from Orbx then I think any other developer in the past 15 years or so of simming.  I wish to continue that trend.  The main factor for me in purchasing a scenery is overall quality which I judge by the “do I get the feeling I’m there in real life”.  For airports that have them, default jetways are one of the main things that break that reality for me.  These are usually different in some aspects at every airport, so would really love to see them as custom models.  Price just isn’t a huge factor for me, unfortunately.  I’m prepared to spend more $$ for something that exceeds in that regard.  That is why Orbx has traditionally always spoken to me.  Perhaps we have been spoiled by the release of MSFS, but expectations have gone up accordingly as a result.  I look forward to many more wonderful sceneries from Orbx in the future.  
 

Sincerely,

Rob

[ravenn22]

21 minutes ago, TigerTigerM said:

There are some very creative people churning out freeware that can match payware, & it must be galling to have a team working on a payware airport for say 6 months & find someone has beaten you to the punch via releasing a good freeware version before the Orbx version comes on to the market.

 

Sorta this - but also payware devs, new or established can look at the Orbx back catalog from XP and P3D and use that for their own roadmap - 'rush out' their own version of an airport that Orbx had proved would be popular.  I'd bought "the other version" of Vancouver and Key West, because I had no idea Orbx had a version in the works. Fortunately, it was a good dev, so I didn't waste my money, but I would have preferred to wait for the Orbx version, had I known. 

I did put the brakes on buying KJAC because I wasn't Orbx, and obviously Orbx has a really good P3D version - so I'll wait and see if that will be properly updated.

Unfortunately, the first person out of the gate will generally "win" as most people won't pay top dollar for a different version of the same payware airport, even if the 2nd one is slightly better.

Even the best freeware ( with few exceptions ) doesn't hold up to top quality payware - esp for optimization and performance, or having dependencies on other packages and the update process is easier with Central or something like it.

[BradB]

2 hours ago, TigerTigerM said:

A few observations.

Prior to MSFS, in FSX & P3D, Orbx could run the 'Wedding Cake' model.

Layer upon layer of purchasable add ons. (Check the Product page Global section to see what I mean)

MSFS has pulled that rug out from under them to a certain extent as many 'layers' are provided in MSFS out of the box.

So new ways of creating revenue have needed to be found. The Partnerships arrangement running off the back of Orbx Central is a good move, IMHO. Clip the ticket as a Partner product goes out the door.

But MSFS, with its legion of freeware scenery & airport creators must be a nightmare for Orbx.

There are some very creative people churning out freeware that can match payware, & it must be galling to have a team working on a payware airport for say 6 months & find someone has beaten you to the punch via releasing a good freeware version before the Orbx version comes on to the market.

In that respect Orbx may wish to consider an 'in the pipeline' section of the forum which outlines the airports & scenery & anything else being developed for release in the next, say, 12 months, which could alert Orbx customers & encourage them to hold off from an alternative source purchase, if the quality is there! (Quality - very important)

(I suspect there might be something like this now, but it doesn't hit me in the face on the forums. Perhaps it needs more prominence or I need new glasses) [2021 Roadmap - I should read that]

Finally, it may behoove Orbx to run some sort of survey in its forums asking readers to rank what they look for in an airfield that triggers them to make that purchase.

The buildings, weathering, clutter, moving objects such as tarmac vehicles, shuttle trains, interiors, A1 aircraft, detailed surroundings encompassing the airport,  POI on the approach paths, tarmac/taxiway markings?

And so on. 

TTM

 

+1 - Feedback from new and old customer's is always good .

[Rodger Pettichord]

My sense is that MSFS pulled the rug out from under many development companies. It crashed into the market without mercy, and the technical side of add-on development is nowhere as simple as initially promised. My hat is off to Orbx and all the other development companies who have no choice but to adapt to this 800 pound gorilla. I'm amazed at how well and gracefully Orbx has managed the early stages of transition. That's my two cents.

[perohijo]

I hate to say this, but it appears the quality is going down. I have been an Orbx customer for a long time, but I started to notice that quality is not what it used to be. The irony, for me anyway, is that the quality of airports were better on, in my opinion, lesser simulators when it should be the other way around. A simple case in point is PAKT, were a company I really didn't know about and one from which I have never bought a single product, has a way better quality of PAKT. It seems Orbx thinks is better to sale quantity instead of quality. For those of us who care about quality and are willing to pay for it, is a big blow. In all honesty, if i new about the other version i probably would have bought it instead. I always pick Orbx first because of their products.

What happened Orbx?

[kaboki]

They(Orbx) say the sdk limit them from having "people flow", while other devs managed to have animated people, aerosoft, and now pilot plus.... What happend to Orbx innovation? Clearly its possible... Instead we just get cheap port overs and what looks like a cash grab,,, Sorry, I dont believe that these throwback products dont make money, Orbx is not a charity organisation afterall.

 

The only products im happy with for MSFS from Orbx is the Sydney scenery and their mesh products..  I used to buy everthing Orbx in the past, now I seem to prefer their "partners" offers. Its sad really and im not sure if I will abandon ship

 

Im not trying to be mean or anything, Just a very dissapointed fanboiii... 

Edited August 27, 2021 by kaboki

[Sniper31]

I too am a long time Orbx customer as many others here, harkening back to when the different AU regions were Red, Blue, Gold and Green. I too used to instantly buy any new Orbx release as they were such a delight. Each one was so personalized by the different developers but at the same time they ALL had that 'Orbx Magic'. Presently, I do not feel that 'Orbx Magic' anymore. I am sure the current developers put lots of hard work into the various projects, but for whatever reason, the current new scenery projects, mostly (there are a few exceptions) just seem okay. I do enjoy seeing Orbx develop aircraft again, as I loved it when they developed the Lancair IV and the Victa Air Tourer (too bad they were never developed for P3Dv5). But here again, the current crop of Orbx aircraft just don't seem to have that same 'Orbx Magic'. The Edgley Eclipse is an exception, as I do feel a little of that magic there. But, by and large, I just don't get excited anymore about new Orbx releases. Only the Orbx staff and developers truly know why this might be, but bottom line for me is that previously I would ONLY buy Orbx scenery, period, no exception. And now, for me, Orbx scenery is starting to feel like just another scenery package in the big mixing pot of sim scenery that is being churned out. I will close with this...remember the cool Orbx User Manuals that used to come with every scenery product? They were never very long, but had very useful information in them, a little back ground on the local area included in the scenery and POI's included, and sometimes maps of coverage and airport diagrams. It was little details like that that helped set Orbx above the rest. But, we don't have those nice, custom User Manuals anymore. Sad shame....:( 

[paulb]

A very interesting thread.

 

I started with FSX/P3Dv4 and bought just about every Orbx product available. The enhancement to the 'standard' scenery was excellent. great flying which I still enjoy.

 

Then when True Earth GB was released I purchased XP11. I have also purchased almost all of the UK airports for XP11. I really like flying over the UK.

 

With the release of MSFS2020, I held back a bit to see what developed. I have a new pc coming late September for MSFS2020 ( I will also install P3D and XP11 on it).

 

But looking at the way new sceneries are being added by MS I do wonder how many Orbx scenery products I will buy. This thread has reflected what was going on in my head.

 

From what I can see MSFS is still a developing program. I am really not sure how scenery designers best fit with its progress.

 

Anyway, I wish Orbx all success as I have had great please from my purchases of Orbx scenery.

[Taph]

As a long time customer and an old aged pensioner, have become more careful with my purchases, due to the age of my computer have been loath to move to cutting

edge until I have replaced my hardware. I am still running FXS, and looking to move to P3D, given bandwidth constraints and the immaturity of the product do not wish to move to MSFS as  I prefer to spend my time flying than troubleshooting and try to work out if it is a hardware or internet issue.

 

It will be a shame if Orbx loses its magic touch, I gave up buying other venders scenery products, as I knew if I bought from Orbx the quality was good there were no

compatibility issues.

 

Nice to know your still listening and thank you for keeping this topic open

[Bullfox]

I benefited greatly from being able to port over all my Orbx scenery from FSX to P3D back in May when I installed P3D.  I also benefited from Throwback Thursday and was able to purchase and install more Orbx scenery at sale prices.  I get the impression that a lot of the bitching is about Orbx and MSFS.  Sorry you guys are disappointed.

 

Computers are fast.  When you work with computers a lot you wind up expecting everything to be fast.  Maybe a little patience would be helpful.   

[stiletto2]

Let's see, the topic is Concerned About Direction Orbx is Heading.  I, for one, am not concerned about Orbx's direction.  I was, at first, when Orbx started growing their list of 3rd party partners.  After buying almost all Orbx in-house developed products I was concerned about Orbx's future quality, support, etc.  I imagine working with more 3rd parties was a tough decision for Orbx too! 

 

However, I find that I am pretty happy and look forward to a continuing future with Orbx.  Microsoft Flight Simulator has only been out for a year but I already have over 30 scenery products purchased from Orbx Direct.  I like them all.  Sure some of them are not built in-house, but I know that Orbx has done their quality due diligence on the 3rd parties that they have partnered with, I have purchased them all using Orbx Direct, the 3rd party products are installed via Orbx Central (which is a great tool) and my updates, as required, have come through automatically.

 

I just checked and it looks to me like Orbx has over a 100 scenery (airport and landmark) products available right now for Micrsoft Flight Simulator including 3rd party products.   That is pretty impressive when dealing with a new/complex simulator that has only been out for 1 year with an incomplete SDK featuring updates every few months that might break a developer's existing scenery's operation .   

 

And now I am able to get some of my favorite P3D Orbx sceneries for Microsoft Flight Simulator like 1WA6 at almost no cost ($3.21) due to Orbx's Throwback Classic program.  Yes, the product description should probably be clearer about the content being a simple port of the P3D version and when I click on the OrbxDirect ad for Throwback Thursday it only shows me the latest throwback product even though I would prefer it show me all the Throwback products since I may have missed a Thursday or two.... but that is a minor nit that could be easily changed.

 

Looking ahead, the upcoming Orbx product I am currently following is Stockholm Bromma airport.  The many pics posted by the Orbx in-house developer, Marcus Nyberg, are demonstrating to me that this will be another fine, high-quality, Orbx in-house product.  Now I have to go check out Pilot Plus's EGGD Bristol International Airport for Microsoft Flight Simulator which is now out and looks to be another high-quality airport easily available to me thanks to Orbx's 3rd party partnering program.  So, as I said at the beginning, I am not concerned about Orbx's direction and the future looks bright...but that's me.

 

Rod 

 

[flsm (Frank)]

Well said @stiletto2.  You have given some objective, specific ways Orbx could improve some things.  As I said in my first post, that is what helps, not subjective, non-specific statements similar to:

“Orbx needs to return to what it once was”  (very subjective)

 

“Orbx needs to be at the forefront of the industry and be proud of every one of their products”  (as if we need to tell Orbx that! - It’s probably at the centre of their business plan!)

 

Hence in my second post I suggested maybe having an on-going Bug List and Wish List where we can vote so that Orbx gets an idea of our priorities, like in MSFS.

 

BTW, here is another small objective thing.  A post in the Forum mentioned a free airport with the Alaska Mesh, but this was not mentioned in the blurb where you buy the Mesh.

 

Gotta love Orbx!

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SGunard]

On 8/27/2021 at 9:11 PM, Sniper31 said:

previously I would ONLY buy Orbx scenery, period, no exception. And now, for me, Orbx scenery is starting to feel like just another scenery package in the big mixing pot of sim scenery that is being churned out

 Exactly the same for me. For years I'd only bought Orbx - but not now, I'm afraid 

[andy1252]

Like a few others here, I'm another oldie who has bought a lot of Orbx stuff over the last few years. Up until a couple of years ago I probably had every single product for both P3D and XP, and I was another one of those who thought that Orbx could do no wrong with its scenery.

 

But I am also amongst those who feel that Orbx is losing the plot these days. Ever since the partner program got into its stride, I've felt (and posted a couple of times to say so) that the focus has been far more on corporate growth and identity at the expense of core quality. I still buy a lot, but not quite all, of Orbx products, and a lot of the partner products. And I am a big buyer of scenery for MSFS generally (I have somewhere approaching 1800 folders in my addons linker folders, admittedly that also includes liveries but still the majority of that is scenery), and I don't fly P3D at all now, and XP maybe two or three times this past year.

 

But Orbx is now middling at best in terms of quality, in my opinion. And it's not just the "throwback Thursday" stuff. I've thought that several of the cityscape products have looked a bit plasticky and unreal, and it's rare for me now to get that real "wow" from an Orbx product. Plus, as a couple of folk have mentioned, MSFS provides such good basic scenery that the urge to buy yet more of the same-old-same-old airports is beginning to recede, even for a committed scenery junkie like me. Most of my interest nowadays is in areas outside Orbx's traditional areas. I am far more interested in exploring those parts of the world that have effectively been denied to us in the past in the previous sims - places like Africa, Asia, middle Europe etc. Having said that, there are plenty of Orbx airports that I would love to see properly ported across or redone for MSFS, places like KPSP, Bowerman, most of the OZ and NZ airports etc. The fact that they existed and were pretty good in P3D has possibly stopped other developers going ahead to produce their own, as they might reasonably have assumed that Orbx would swing in with an impressive version at some point, but I suspect that won't hold true for much longer. Truth is, there is freeware out there for MSFS that makes some of the Orbx MSFS stuff look poor.

 

So like a lot of other folk, I suspect, I haven't totally given up on Orbx, but I don't see it as anything special these days. Which is a shame, but that's life. I support the concept of brand loyalty, but only up to a point. For myself, I feel that Orbx has squandered a lot of the goodwill that it has built up over the years with a combination of mediocre releases, and what I consider to be a very defensive attitude in the forums. I no longer bother to come here generally - I pop in occasionally to pick up messages and I just happened to see this thread today on one of those occasions.

 

It may well be that Orbx will regain its position of eminence in the scenery business, and I would be well pleased if it did - but I'm not holding my breath. I'll keep checking on Central to see what's new, but I will also keep buying partner products from other sources if I already have a setup with them, and I'm sure I'll keep on buying Orbx stuff, but in some cases it's getting to be more in hope than expectation, as the saying goes.