Is flight simming more for the older person?

[Jon Clarke]

I notice that many subscribers to these forums are, like me, of the "older" generation. It may not be an accurate assumption as older people tend to like to announce their age with pride, like it is a show of survivability ! Me included since I reached "that" age.

Anyone think that this sim thing is for us oldies more than for the younger set who seem to like to shoot things up rather than fly serenely over beautiful landscapes, or take the challenge of recreating a tubeliner flight with all the inherent complexities therein?

 I know we want to encourage the younger set to take up the hobby, but I think it is quite a challenge. The younger folks generally speaking, don't have the patience us oldies do, to set up a flight, wait for loading, getting a CTD, asking for help in the forums because something major is wrong with the sim/addon etc.. They want instant. 

AF2 might be more of their inspiration because it loads quick, has good if not detailed ground autogen type features and doesn't seem to break very often Of course at present AF2 only has limited DLC/addon options so less to break, but  P3D and FSX have become very complicated because of all the addons available, conflicts, settings, CPU and GPU requirements etc.

Any thoughts?

 

[Sniper31]

Well, I was about 12 or 13 years old when I discovered and fell in love with subLogic Flight Simulator back in the early 1980's, so I would say some young folks would like it as I did. 

[John Venema]

Here is the website statistics for the last week showing sessions by age group:

 

This clearly shows our senior customers are in the minority, not majority. Hope this answers your question.

[Guest]

So our veterans are more chatting in the pub than flying in the -virtual- air 

[EuRo42]

Well, I'm flightsimmer of the 1st hour. Still own MSFS Vers. 1 on a 5,25" disc. Today I'm sitting in a homecockpit with two computers and four Screens facing my 60th birthday at the end of the year.
Last year I got a new hardware and was discussing with my trusted hardware seller. He is about 30 years old and he asked me to show him. I did. His question: "And this is what you're doing all day long? No combat? No race? No challenge at all? Isn't it boring?"
I tried to explain the fascination of flying without all the trouble around like booking, charter, fueling - the whole stuff. With the actual FSX (or P3D or even XP11) you have all the fun of discovering the world, without the inconvenience.
Not enough for the younger ones. They prefer things like GTA 5, for example, which has great graphics as well and even a build in flight simulator. But action! Most of them want action. For us elder guys the graphics (LOWI!), real-time weather, moving map and so on are the miracle. For the younger it seems to be a matter of course. They grew up with the possibilities. And last but not least, we're able to pay the costs of the bunch of add-ons...
So don't think too much - enjoy flying as long as you can.
 

[JimNZ]

Richard, for your information we are running around doing what the wife orders us to do. You know, happy wife equals a happy life.

 

Jim.

[pmb]

33 minutes ago, John Venema said:

Here is the website statistics for the last week showing sessions by age group:

This clearly shows our senior customers are in the minority, not majority. Hope this answers your question.

Thanks John, this is a real surprise to me, but good to know there's fresh blood coming in.

 

Kind regards, Michael

[Jon Clarke]

Thanks JV. Interesting stats. It shows quite a high percentage of 45+ yr olds. Not that 45 is old, and that 55-65+ are almost twice the percentage of 18-24yr olds.

[briansommers]

I'm 51 but I got into it in the Sublogic days when I was around 17. BUT, back then we didn't have all these shooters and action games, some, but not like today. I played some of those but would always return to flightsim, something about it that I can't shake.

 

I've got my rig hooked up to our 65" TV in the living room and I'm going all McDonald's about it........I'm loving it!

[JimmiG]

I started simming with Flight Unlimited II around 1997. I was 13 at the time. Much earlier, I actually had Solo Flight on my Commodore 64 and F/A 18 Interceptor, Gunship etc. on my Amiga, but I was too young at the time to really know what I was doing.

 

I don't think it's necessarily that flight sims appeal to older people. Those who are old now probably started simming when they were younger.

[wolfko]

2 hours ago, John Venema said:

This clearly shows our senior customers are in the minority, not majority.

 

 

That depends on the age of the beholder! 

[hwh86]

Must not forget people, we oldies are living our second childhood.

[hwh86]

4 minutes ago, hwh86 said:

Must not forget people, we oldies are living our second childhood.

Some of us pee our pants, some wear nappies, we eat a lot of pap because chewing is becoming more and more of a chore, we don't suck on dummies, our pacifiers are called dentures. We fly simulators because it can be done sitting down or even in bed. Last of all, it feels as though we are achieving something.

[teecee]

I agree with that, and as far a JV's figures are concerned, there are less of us oldies because there are progressively less of us.. Teecee.

 

[paulb]

9 hours ago, John Venema said:

Here is the website statistics for the last week showing sessions by age group:

 

This clearly shows our senior customers are in the minority, not majority. Hope this answers your question.

 

Wow! Thank you very much for the post JV. That is great news for all of us! Clearly FS has a great future

 

Cheers

Paul

[Stillwater]

11 hours ago, John Venema said:

Here is the website statistics for the last week showing sessions by age group:

This clearly shows our senior customers are in the minority, not majority. Hope this answers your question.

Good to see we cover a broad variety of ages.

 

But, like with all statistics: What do you count?

- visits in the forum (probably not...)

- starts of FTXC?

- starts of the flight sim (including crashes)?

- number of flights (including short set-up trials)?

- hours of flights (incl. pauses)?

- or a multiple of starts * hours flown?

All makes some sense, but all gives different options to explain.

[Gollum]

I am defiantly in group 6. I came to flight Sim via IL2 .  I always had the feeling that it was controlled by 14 year olds and those with the faster PC had most of the advantage . Having said that I would like some of the WW2 planes in ORBX to be able to fire at something and get a result, even if it was just practice .

 

Regards 

[Ken Q]

Yes, but if you consider the "older set" to be those 55 and over, we're more than a quarter (26%) if the total.

[Rolfspan]

That is surprising but in a great way. Thanks JV.

[wolfko]

38 minutes ago, Stillwater said:

Good to see we cover a broad variety of ages.

 

But, like with all statistics: What do you count?

- visits in the forum (probably not...)

- starts of FTXC?

- starts of the flight sim (including crashes)?

- number of flights (including short set-up trials)?

- hours of flights (incl. pauses)?

- or a multiple of starts * hours flown?

All makes some sense, but all gives different options to explain.

 

 

John says in his opening post: "Here is the website statistics for the last week showing sessions by age group".

So I think the numbers refer to the first point you have listed: "visits to the forums" or similar.

I actually would feel uncomfortable if Orbx surveilled all the other actions you have mentioned.

 

 

 

 

[Rodger Pettichord]

Thanks JV for the interesting statistics. Never would have guessed that break down. I note that those of us over 70 were not given a slot, which is sad to see since we are by far the highest quality age-group of the bunch.

[John Venema]

We have hundreds of different stats and metrics which we monitor weekly, so this is by no means an exhautive analysis, but it does highlight the fact that our overall audience is a very broad mix of age groups with no segment dominating. For a business, these are encouraging and healthy stats, and clearly shows the market is maturing and growing.

[JimNZ]

Rodger,

+1.

Agree entirely.

JimNZ

[hwh86]

John, you are in it for business, we are in it for fun.

[GeorgeM]

16 hours ago, John Venema said:

Here is the website statistics for the last week showing sessions by age group:

...
This clearly shows our senior customers are in the minority, not majority. Hope this answers your question.

 

Interesting. Out of curiosity, where is the age data from? The forum profiles, or do you have other ways of determining it? My age in my profile is "1/1/not telling" (I'm old). Does the 16,000 out of 32,000 sessions mean there is no age data for the other half? If so, that's a lot of unknown. I'd bet that older folks are more careful with online privacy than younger ones, and might be overrepresented in the unknown.

 

That said, it is nice to see so many younger folks into the hobby.

[Bassman]

"John, you are in it for business, we are in it for fun."  This comment is not entirely correct. JV started out simming as a hobby, helped evolve it initially into a voluntary simming community called VOZ and finally had the  fortunate circumstance of turning his hobby into a business in which I am sure that he still has fun (if he didn't he would probably not be in it)  Like all of us ( I presume) we have a number of hobbies and interests with motor sports being one of JV's other interests in which I am sure that he also has fun.

On topic, in our little Vatpac group we are starting to attract a number of teenagers on line for our Wednesday night World Discovery flights and Friday/Sunday night VFR Downunder flights. They are hampered unfortunately by a lack of disposable income but they all have the Orbx basics and nearly each of them have their sights set on aviation as their future careers. I even have a couple of the teenagers contributing suggested flight plans so all in all the "hobby" is quite healthy and their representation on line tends to support anecdotally  Orbx data.

[HiFlyer]

I don't think you have to be any particular age group to desperately want FSX to look better, so Orbx having a broad spectrum is not really surprising.

 

I suspect you would see greater age differentials though, if you checked in certain of the other Flight Simulation market segments.

 

[BPL]

I'm 24, and I've been flight simming since I was about 10. Some others above also mentioned that they began flight simming at rather young ages, and there are young people on the forums here and at other flight simulation sites. Some of the Orbx developers themselves are quite young. Based on that sort of anecdotal evidence and on the statistics JV posted, I wouldn't say that flight simming is the exclusive province of the older generations. Having said that, I would imagine (though I have no hard evidence for this) that there are more representatives of the older generations in the flight simulation community than there are in most other gaming communities.

[pmb]

13 minutes ago, BPL said:

I'm 24, and I've been flight simming since I was about 10. Some others above also mentioned that they began flight simming at rather young ages, and there are young people on the forums here and at other flight simulation sites. Some of the Orbx developers themselves are quite young. Based on that sort of anecdotal evidence and on the statistics JV posted, I wouldn't say that flight simming is the exclusive province of the older generations. 

I started simming nealy 30 years ago, too. However, there's an important difference. When I entered the field using FS4, this was a VERY popular program, it was used as a quasi-testing standed for video cards, there were ads in magazines (not necessarily flightsim related), even on TV, there were MSFS-related books on the shelves and you could buy MSFS on any electronics market or even your beloved supermarket.

 

Times have changed since. Prepar3d, compared to MSFS, has several entry barriers I'd better not touch upon here, FSX(:SE) is better accessible but clearly shows too much of its age of more than 10 yrs. to fascinate youngsters. All attempts to create an entry-level simulator were doomed to fail, and certainly for a reason. The last one having been FlightSchool expectedly to be followed by Ready for Takeoff (no need to google, forget about it).There remains XP, which for whatever reason never reached the popularity of the MSFS franchise despite massively being pressed into the marked by a well-known publisher.

 

Which backed my assumption there being less fresh blood entering the field - which was just proven wrong by JV.

 

Kinds regards, Michael

[BPL]

6 minutes ago, pmb said:

I started simming nealy 30 years ago, too. However, there's an important difference. When I entered the field using FS4, this was a VERY popular program, it was used as a quasi-testing standed for video cards, there were ads in magazines (not necessarily flightsim related), even on TV, there were MSFS-related books on the shelves and you could buy MSFS on any electronics market or even your beloved supermarket.

 

Times have changed since. Prepar3d, compared to MSFS, has several entry barriers I'd better not touch upon here, FSX(:SE) is better accessible but clearly shows too much of its age of more than 10 yrs. to fascinate youngsters. All attempts to create an entry-level simulator were doomed to fail, and certainly for a reason. The last one having been FlightSchool expectedly to be followed by Ready for Takeoff (no need to google, forget about it).There remains XP, which for whatever reason never reached the popularity of the MSFS franchise despite massively being pressed into the marked by a well-known publisher.

 

Which backed my assumption there being less fresh blood entering the field - which was just proven wrong by JV.

 

Kinds regards, Michael

 

All very good and interesting points, and I think your assumption was a fair one. I've been simming for about half as long as you have, but in that time I've witnessed some of the same things you describe. I'm sure add-on developers have played a massive role in keeping flight simulation alive. Even if the road has been a little rocky for new flight simulation platforms in recent years, add-on developers such as Orbx and A2A have done amazing work with the available platforms. They've brought to reality things that would have been only dreams in my early flight simming days.

[John Venema]

The age metrics come from Google, who must only have visibility on age for 50% of session. However, that sample can safely be expanded to indicate similar levels for all sessions.

[COBS]

Just now, jjaycee1 said:

Anyone think that this sim thing is for us oldies more than for the younger set.......... 

I know we want to encourage the younger set to take up the hobby, but I think it is quite a challenge. The younger folks generally speaking, don't have the patience us oldies do, to set up a flight, wait for loading,.........

Any thoughts?

 

1. You need to keep in mind that  " Simulators " are used in the real world by pilots at all ages , from the Teenager to retirement age ,

for a wide range of categories , general training , IFR training , airliner , military , ..... etc .

The main difference is how you choose to use it , mostly we just enjoy our flying , but if we wish we can apply ,

checklists , full procedures including IFR , failures ... etc .

   Some real world pilots use our sim to practice checklists and procedures before going out for a real flight , as you can imagine

with the costs associated with flying a few private pilots reap the benefits of recurrent practice in the sim .

 

Another aspect is our visuals are far superior to those in some real world simulators , some real ones that I've seen are terrible .

 

2. All ages have " patience " , I was very young when I qualified as a pilot , to get there required theory study , anyone who does 

that has both patience and determination .

 

To sum it up our Flight Simulator is brilliant , and even more so with the ORBX  scenery products loaded .

 

Cheers

Karol

 

[Mr.Mugel]

I´m 28 now and like @BPL I started quite young. I still slightly remember MS FS1 with the Camel dogfighting mode. Also marvels like TFX if anyone knows that, probably wasn´t 10 years old when I knew for which purpose I´d have to select which GBU, or an AGM, AMRAAM or Sidewinder missile. The titles SWOTL (Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe) and The Mighty Eigth took some time of my youth as well. Still love to see the old intro of The Mighty Eigth, what an unbelievable graphic that was back then (Available at Youtube)

And I stuck with FS growing up, I guess I have used them all. The first static VCs in FS98, the rage when they abandoned them in FS2000. Also CFS1 and 2, dogfighting for hours. I downloaded addons, even created one, an upgrade for an ex-alphasim B-17 reviving the VC with gauges for FS2k2. FS9 and FSX must have had hundreds of hours. Loved the A2A warbirds with their system depth, started collecting some ORBX scenery as it was the one that convinced me most.

Than came Assetto Corsa in 2013, and I didn´t tough flight sims for two years, than reinstalled FS, too much hassle, running too slow, didn´t really like it, went back to the Nordschleife. And when I got the chance to assemble a better rig from my brothers old one with a slightly faulty GPU from a good friend which he gave me to test if it worked for me, only than did I start to enjoy FS again. Now I just need to collect some more scenery around europe to fly my Connie to!

[paulb]

17 minutes ago, Mr.Mugel said:

I´m 28 now and like @BPL I started quite young. I still slightly remember MS FS1 with the Camel dogfighting mode. Also marvels like TFX if anyone knows that, probably wasn´t 10 years old when I knew for which purpose I´d have to select which GBU, or an AGM, AMRAAM or Sidewinder missile. The titles SWOTL (Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe) and The Mighty Eigth took some time of my youth as well. Still love to see the old intro of The Mighty Eigth, what an unbelievable graphic that was back then (Available at Youtube)

And I stuck with FS growing up, I guess I have used them all. The first static VCs in FS98, the rage when they abandoned them in FS2000. Also CFS1 and 2, dogfighting for hours. I downloaded addons, even created one, an upgrade for an ex-alphasim B-17 reviving the VC with gauges for FS2k2. FS9 and FSX must have had hundreds of hours. Loved the A2A warbirds with their system depth, started collecting some ORBX scenery as it was the one that convinced me most.

Than came Assetto Corsa in 2013, and I didn´t tough flight sims for two years, than reinstalled FS, too much hassle, running too slow, didn´t really like it, went back to the Nordschleife. And when I got the chance to assemble a better rig from my brothers old one with a slightly faulty GPU from a good friend which he gave me to test if it worked for me, only than did I start to enjoy FS again. Now I just need to collect some more scenery around europe to fly my Connie to!

 

Well I am nearly 65 now, but I can remember all of those!  SWOTL, Aces of the Pacific, Microprose F117, Apache Gunship and many more!

CFS 1 and later!

TFX was truly excellent! Also, please do not forget Falcon in its various incarnations starting with the  Atari and Amiga.

[antonvs]

Here is the website statistics for the last week showing sessions by age group:




 

This clearly shows our senior customers are in the minority, not majority. Hope this answers your question.

John, this may be correct however it may only show that the older generation are not viewing the forum as much. We may be flying our sims instead. This is the case for me as if it comes to the pinch, Fly or forum, I fly. It is only when I am not able to Fly (i.e. no access to my PC) that I turn to the Forums. Just my thoughts.


Anton via Tapatalk Pro

[Gypsy Pilot]

Add me to the Senior+ Cohort 

 

I have loved flying all of my life and FS has provided a way to scratch that itch.

Without FS I would be stuck on the ground looking up instead of sightseeing over that wonderful Orbx scenery and going for that 100 dollar hamburger.

FS allows me to act like a billion dollar playboy collecting aircraft and going for joyrides without worrying about the cost.  

In FS you never have to worry about the cost of crash repair, ambulance rides to the Emergency Room where we always survive, and no FAA to ground us.

( Us Southern Boys have never been afraid to say "Hold my beer and watch this", hence the trips to the ER. )

I have reached an age where I consider anyone under 60 a kid and I am still flying.  

Ain't it great.

 

Dale

 

 

 

[Rodger Pettichord]

All kidding aside, it ain't the age group, it's the passion. No matter our age, I think we all share a deep and lasting passion for aircraft and flying. In that sense, we're all kids!

[GregJ]

I just turned 50, have been simmingpost sub logic with 1st Gen MS Flight (my cousin helped in it's design, while working for MS) she gave an advanced copy to my Uncle - then VP of McDonnel Douglas and he and I were playing it one day...BAM! Instant attraction - Not as hard-core as others - but a definite go to for peace and relaxation. I too like the capability of choosing somewhere in the world and going there....either direct from the airport of choosing somewhere and making the other a destination. Don't get me wrong - all you youngsters - I still play BF1 like a bat out of hell and can GTA with the best of them....it's just sometimes - a little relaxing P3D/OrbX enhanced Custom AI and a screaming fast VRS Superbug, or a low slow flight is what's in order based on the day... 

 

I think that for aspiring pilots and I would also think that bug comes early - it's a great tool to keep your skill sets in place.

[Musketeer]

I started in the early 90's when I was about 18 and flight simmed on and off for about 10 years before losing interest and getting busy with other things in life.

 

I can't remember exactly why, but two years ago (by then into my early 40's) I started to sim again. That's when I discovered the world of addons and you tube etc. All of that made it easy to get hooked again. It's a lot more expensive a hobby than it used to be  

 

I'm definitely a lot better at it now than I ever was the first time around as an 18 yr old...

 

 

[jose633]

I started with my ZX Spectrum when I was 13 years old. Flight Simulation, a 8 bit program on a 48K computer...

I think that age is not a determinant factor in order to sim