announcement The future of quad installers

[John Venema]

Hello everyone,

 

As you know we're almost finished with porting around 130 products to the new quad installers. This has been a monumental task taking over six months and costing in excess of AU$100,000 in development costs. Whilst we don't begrudge that investment into our customer base (who remain and continue to grow in loyalty - thank you!) - a line must be drawn in the sand.

 

We will continue to patch and update products to cater for any issues arising from Prepar3D V3.x changes, likely to be restricted to ObjectFlow and perhaps a few other minor under-the-hood tweaks that LM do.

 

With Prepar3D V4 however, we're going to pass on the porting costs to our customers. How that transpires into actual $ amounts is too early to tell because we don't know what a possible major revision to P3D looks like; perhaps not even LM do yet at this stage.

 

However what is clear is that our customers are moving en-masse to P3Dv3. Here is how our customer base is split up:

 

FSX       42.48%

FSX-SE 12.22%

P3Dv1     0.49%

P3Dv2     6.83%

P3Dv3    37.97%

 

P3Dv3 is rapidly grabbing customer share at a rate of about 5% per month, meaning in a year's time it will be the absolute dominant simulator platform for Orbx customers.

 

We believe the continued investment by LM into P3D's feature set, memory management, performance, HDR and visual lighting systems and other new tech like SpeedTree etc, is what is attracting more and more customers to it.

 

So clearly that is where the majority of you will be installed on by year's end and of course we'll ensure you're well looked after.

 

Of course we have Dovetail Games Flight Simulator coming along at the end of 2016 but it's just way too early to speculate on what its final feature set will look like and how its DLC will be sold. We're good partners with DTG so of course we'll want to ensure we have a way to support that new sim and once DTG shares the mechanics of DLC to the community we can begin to comment and make commitments around that. Until then, we can't be drawn into speculative discussion on something still being developed.

 

Even notwithstanding our desire to be involved at the highest level with DGFS, the reality is that it's going to take some time for Orbx and other content developers to retool for that platform, so expect some transition time to the new sim in terms of which of our products are available for it.

 

Oh, go and get Dovetail Flight School, for a measly $15 you get slickly presented flight lessons in a new 64-bit DX11 sim and Orbx FTX Global to boot. What's not to like about that deal?

 

 

2016 is going to be HUGE for Orbx. There are a number of changes coming that will change how you interact, buy and interface to our company and the changes are most definitely for the better. We're not going public on any of those initiatives yet because there's a LOT of plumbing work that needs to be done under the covers. 

 

Some product highlights to look forward to though over the next few months:

 

- Jarrad's KTEX Telluride is nothing short of a miracle airport product, almost approaching the size of a mini-region.

- openLC USA/Mexico enters beta testing on Friday; it's a long road of testing, expect it out in June. But boy is it going to be worth it, seeing the whole of NA the way it's meant to be.

- FTX Germany North is at the pointy end of development and it's just an amazing region so full of POI's they are counted in the tens of thousands. Finally our second largest market gets the region they deserve!

- We have nearly another 30 products being released through the rest of the year, all of them quad-installers out of the box

 

So to recap:

 

- P3Dv4 product ports will attract a nominal fee based on what we find out about that new sim

- Over 85% of our customers will be using P3Dv3 by the end of this year. That's huge. If you're on the fence, think seriously about moving, since it offers the best sim experience available today (as in today, not next year)

- We're 100% behind DGFS and a DTG partner but it's just too early to speculate on DLC mechanics

- DG Flight School is a bargain, well worth it just to see the new engine at play

 

 

I'll provide another update and exciting news in June.

[TigerTigerM]

Thanks for update.

Some pondering to do as regards future sim platform & hardware.

Going forward is there a way Orbx/LM can work together such that each time they go P3D VX+1 Orbx doesn't have to go through the costly porting exercise??

Also, as the FSX customer base dwindles, as your data suggests, is there a customer base % at which it would be abandoned??

Thanks

TTM

[Triplane]

 

Super news John. Again, I just have to say thank you for all the work on the quad-installers. I hope you know just how big a deal that is for all of us in ORBX-land. Onward.....

 

Doug

[John Venema]

2 minutes ago, TigerTigerM said:

Thanks for update.

Some pondering to do as regards future sim platform & hardware.

Going forward is there a way Orbx/LM can work together such that each time they go P3D VX+1 Orbx doesn't have to go through the costly porting exercise??

Also, as the FSX customer base dwindles, as your data suggests, is there a customer base % at which it would be abandoned??

Thanks

TTM

 

We're still supporting P3Dv1 which is 0.49% of our customer base. That will be the first sim to be 'retired' so to speak.

 

We have an active dialog with LM and you've already seen how they now split upgrades into sim engine / scenery options. That alleviates a lot of pain for many addon vendors, Orbx included.

[Richard McDonald Woods]

Hi JV,

Many thanks once again for laying out your plans for all to see. I hope that this open and honest approach helps to dampen the otherwise constant questions on what is going to happen next.

All the best,

[Rimshot]

Thank you for this update John. I expected Orbx would start charging fees for future versions of P3D. A very wise decision indeed. Thanks for all the free updates so far! It's hard to imagine how fast the flight simulator world has changed after Microsoft dropped further development of their sim. In the near future we will have two platforms at our disposal, both building on Microsoft technology. How about that? I am very curious how both P3D and DGFS will evolve in the future. And in the meantime we have, as you say, a very stable, great looking sim with P3D v3.

If you're into flight simming, life is good! I'm excited about all that lays ahead of us, starting with viewing the first screenshots of OpenLC USA/Mexico. Bring it on!

[franck66]

Thanks for this interesting update. some good news for us

[Paul K]

I have no problem whatsoever with a fee for P3Dv4 installers, should it be deemed necessary.

[Dean95c]

Great news! Thanks for the update.

 

[curbz]

Thanks for being clear, open and setting expectations early - can't ask for more than that 

[Rolfspan]

Terrific. Great News!

[TomL]

It sure is a tough decision - weighing costs and customer reaction - the latter not being easy to foresee. Kudos for making and communicating this decision that I understand and accept. For years FSX was an unchanged platform and therefore christmas- and other sales were shopping paradise. From my customer point of view, that will change for sure. I'm seeing two, maybe three years between major changes in P3D and the necessity to abandon products not being updated or paying for the others. I sure will pay, but as you said: a line has to be drawn in the sand. I will concentrate on few regions and the corresponding airports and keep them up to date. Telluride? Mouthwatering for sure, as are many other Orbx products. But am I willing to pay for all of them every 3 years or so? For sure, but I couldn't afford it - considering that the sim itself and quite a few other addons aside from sceneries will need investment too.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I highly appreciate your statement as it clearly shows that it's fine to have a simulator that is evolving, but on the other hand calls for a strategy not only on the publishers/developers end.
Count me in for NGermany btw.

 

Kind regards
Tom

[Jordan King]

ORBX has been one of the few examples of customer centric business in the flight simulation community that has really offered a disproportionate amount of service to its clients over the last 5 years. This line in the sand is more than appropriate and represents a responsible approach to the evolving market. Hats off to ORBX for their leadership in the community and I look forward to the future! 

[BrianV]

Great looking plans for 2016 and beyond, thanks for this! The quad installers already provided has allowed us all to maintain and explore afresh the already wide range of airports, regions, etc, in the best possible way. It is clear that some cost for updating will be needed in the future, life-long updates to all products would hardly be realistic even if incorporated into the release prices that would then be substantially higher, but until a P3D v4 emerges we should all enjoy the excellent sim that we already have. With the number of addons and improvements on their way we do indeed have exciting times ahead :-)

[needles]

Wow!

Thanks John for your superb update. Things are looking extremely rosy for Orbx and I'm glad I'm one of the devotees.

Thanks also to the fantastic team of developers currently working with Orbx, they do an excellent job on our behalf.

looking forward to all the goodies coming out this year and into the future with yourselves and DTG.

 

 

Kindest regards

Brian aka Needles

[BaronKen]

Appreciate the update... with OpenLC USA/Mexico beginning beta this Friday hope to begin seeing preview screenshots fairly soon.  

[John Venema]

Quote

 But am I willing to pay for all of them every 3 years or so? For sure, but I couldn't afford it - considering that the sim itself and quite a few other addons aside from sceneries will need investment too.

 

Just to clarify, we won't be asking you to pay for the same addons all over again for P3Dv4. There will be a nominal upgrade fee which can't be determined until we have visibility on the scope of what LM changes for V4.

 

Orbx never has, and never will charge twice for the same products across sim versions which are sold from our official online store (FSS in this case).

[TomL]

That's what I understood. Even a nominal fee is to be multiplied by the installed sceneries and will sum up to some amount. And then there are other developers who surely have the same considerations. We as users certainly have to take that in account more than in FSX-times when deciding whether to buy an addon or not. But I'd rather pay an upgrade fee than abandon a product due to lack of further upgrade. Let's wait and see...

 

Rgds

Tom

[sim123]

Thanks for the great effort made to convert all scenery to P3D v3 in about six months time,

but when LM is updating every year with an update that requires a total makeover of all scenery installers

then I wonder if it should maybe more useful to look for a ORBX tool like Estonia migration has.

 

it should saves a lot of effort and developers can use there precious time to develop new stuff, instead

recompiling old scenery over and over again. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alex Goff]

Quad installers do much more than the Estonia Migrator Tool does. The reason they take time is that we do more work than recompiling files. Models get re-worked, materials fixed, old bugs squashed, ground polygons facelifted, all to improve compatibility, performance, and appearance. 

 

It's been known from the start that you can simply dump scenery from one simulator to another and "it all looks ok" but addressing engine differences is the goal of multi-sim installers. 

[Bermuda425]

Fair resumé John. I wonder how it is possible to include FTX Global in Flight School for $15 while it costs much more as single addon?

Greetin's,

Bermuda

[John Venema]

Because it's a multi-year commercial license to DTG and no vendors can sell addons for Flight School anyway.

[Vora]

That's what I call confidence. After the deducting the Steam cost DTG gets $10 per piece - and no DLCs. Also, surely there will be some sale promotions for a rediculous small price. They must be quite confident about the gateway drug effect for DGFS and the raw numbers.

[John Venema]

Oh trust me, DTG are going to sell a LOT of copies of Flight School...

[daladna]

thanx for work, but is not big deal for users port some in new platform without any migration tools, sure some airports has problem in p3d like vashon or for some people in kblu, so i wish you guys more free time for take rest and save some power for rework only glitch scenes, and do not waste your precious time for port worked scenes, what users can do just for 5 minute, and i realy do not understand why you guys have to create new installers and pay for this 5 days - 5 weeks

so i wish for all user give some more time and attention for port scenes, and for developers more time and power for more constructive things in life and work

thank you

p.s. Alex Goff, hi, if this is not top secret, how much reworked installers was changed for p3d half, 3/4, 90%, or just couple of them, as i think, this is not claim, i just cry about you guys waste your time for incredible lazy users, btw myself lazy with clinical form, and this is not metaphor, so i know what i talking about laziness

[Ken Terry]

18 hours ago, John Venema said:

- Over 85% of our customers will be using P3Dv3 by the end of this year. That's huge

John, this is a surprise, I am sure many will convert, but 85%?  That only leaves 15% for FS9, FSX, FSXSE and earlier P3D

I suspect one thing working against this high forecast prediction are those who will wait and see what DGFS offers.

Good to hear about all the new developments.

Regards

Ken

 

 

[sim123]

13 hours ago, Alex Goff said:

Quad installers do much more than the Estonia Migrator Tool does. The reason they take time is that we do more work than recompiling files. Models get re-worked, materials fixed, old bugs squashed, ground polygons facelifted, all to improve compatibility, performance, and appearance. 

 

It's been known from the start that you can simply dump scenery from one simulator to another and "it all looks ok" but addressing engine differences is the goal of multi-sim installers. 

 

Thanks for your comment , but If i read well, all sceneries are now up to date ? 

but when I looked to time and money amount spent for this update from V2 tot V3 , and the way LM is updating there sim

breaking everytime all add-ons , it should be top priority to think about a way to avoid this mass transformation for future updates

although if we pay extra money for the work that has to be done, it means again waiting sometimes many months before our favourite scenery is available. of course it is great that ORBX is doing all this rework, but it is not the most effected way for saving time and costs.

 

[Adrian Petford]

Thanks for the update, John. Exciting times.

 

I've now gone through dual, triple and quad installers for multiple versions of P3D all for free. Plus I was able to convert all my original DVD products to cross-grade licences for a nominal fee as well. Orbx has been more than generous in supporting customers over the last few years of flux, when you could have easily justified charging again in full for conversion to the new platform. I'm more than happy to pay an upgrade fee for products going forward. The hard-working Orbx devs and admins deserve our support.

 

As an early P3D adopter and die hard v3 user myself, it's very interesting to see how large the P3Dv3 user base is now. I've also been impressed with Dovetail's ideas and enthusiasm when I've talked to their staff at shows and will be watching the new platform with great interest. These are definitely good times to be a simmer and it's great to see Orbx at the forefront of both projects.

[pmb]

2 hours ago, daladna said:

problem in p3d like vashon or for some people in kblu, so i wish you guys more free time for take rest and save some power for rework only glitch scenes, and do not waste your precious time for port worked scenes, what users can do just for 5 minute, and i realy do not understand why you guys have to create new installers and pay for this 5 days - 5 weeks

 

I am sorry, but I strongly disagree. Like Adrian, I was a very early adopter of Prepar3d and went through all the installer upgrades and highly acknowledge the work ORBX has done for us.

 

Your suggestion may sound good in theory, but will not work in practice. Maybe the Prepar3d2 -> Prepar3d3 transiition was "relatively" painless, however, Lockheed Martin will face more challenges for future upgrades, long overdue in fact. I'll mention only two of them:

 

- The transition to 64 bits

- Updating the stone-aged standard airports + navaids data base, preferred into a maintainable form

 

 

Should they ever do these steps - which I would like to see rather today than tomorrow - I am afraid no Migration tool can help, be it Estonian or Russian. You can't migrate binary data from 32 to 64 bits just using those tools being mainly able to just move files and edit xml (I know, that's a bit of an understatement, but you get it). And yes, I know a large part of our sceneries are in a relatively simple data format with *might* work in 64 bits as such, but ORBX sceneries sport a lot of features which can't.

 

On the other hand, how will you adapt FTX AUS SP4 to a new simulator runways + navaids database, maybe even an updatable one, automatically? As far as I understand, at least the older FTX sceneries embed tons of default airports and navdata, where at least part of them will be modified.

 

And these are changes to foresee. There might even come deeper ones no one of us can judge right now. The only alternative would be to send Prepar3d into agony. That's where FSX has been for years, and nearly all of us are happy now, LM and DT opened a way into the future.

 

Kind regards, Michael

[Benny]

The day that I'll move to another platform will be the day that i replace my rig. And it's not gonna be this year ($$$) so I may end up in the 15% FSX user at the end of this year, I hope that you will still support FSX for a wile.

 

On top i hate installing stuff. I have more interesting thing to do in life that looking at a percentage gauge on a screen.  And to be honest, the new gizmo of P3D don't impress me to a point of building a new rid, my HD is 3/4 full anyway. So it's FSX till the HD die. 

 

Now I'll go buy Jarrad latest quest... and fly.

 

A suggestion, i hope you do a region one day out of NA or western Europe. there is a lot of other interesting landscape on the blue planet.

 

I'm still stuck in Tapini. A total winner for me and my personal record as to spending time in one of your product.

 

Ben

[gregmorin]

John

 

Thank you for the extensive update. I most certainly agree with your business model going forward. Your quad installer program helped motivate me to migrate to PD3V3.

Thank you for all that you and your talented team have done for our community.

 

Greg

 

[John Venema]

3 hours ago, Ken Terry said:

John, this is a surprise, I am sure many will convert, but 85%?  That only leaves 15% for FS9, FSX, FSXSE and earlier P3D

I suspect one thing working against this high forecast prediction are those who will wait and see what DGFS offers.

Good to hear about all the new developments.

Regards

Ken

 

 

 

85% by year's end is not a forecast but a mathematical fact based on our monthly trend data from actual installs. If it slows down from 5% per month then I'll be wrong, but I see more posts about people moving to P3Dv3 than staying with FSX.

 

Those who are taking the wait-and-see approach are not really the enthusiasts who enjoy their hobby for what it is 'in the now'. A lot of folks spend considerable time on forums deep in conjecture about their nirvana sim. There won't be a mass migration to DGFS purely because of DLC content. That is going to take the development community time to provide, and as I said earlier, nobody knows the publishing model so it's all blue sky stuff right now. Sure, people will buy DGFS but it's going to be a parallel install for most until their favourite addons arrive as DLC. That's just reality.

[wain71]

I have DGFS on order, like you said at that price with Global even if it turns out not too good its not really a lot to lose.....I have no issue with paying a small fee as I understand there is a lot of work involved, its want you cant see that can cause problems if its not done correctly.....Dovetails new sim which may be out late this year could possibly take a year or more before any devs get up to speed with the engine etc, look at early P3D....all I know is that its great to at last be getting to a time when we have more than one option, not just an old struggling FSX, that I do still use but seems to near its limits.....

[daladna]

3 hours ago, pmb said:

I am sorry, but I strongly disagree. Like Adrian, I was a very early adopter of Prepar3d and went through all the installer upgrades and highly acknowledge the work ORBX has done for us.

 

Your suggestion may sound good in theory, but will not work in practice. Maybe the Prepar3d2 -> Prepar3d3 transiition was "relatively" painless, however, Lockheed Martin will face more challenges for future upgrades, long overdue in fact. I'll mention only two of them:

 

- The transition to 64 bits

- Updating the stone-aged standard airports + navaids data base, preferred into a maintainable form

 

 

Should they ever do these steps - which I would like to see rather today than tomorrow - I am afraid no Migration tool can help, be it Estonian or Russian. You can't migrate binary data from 32 to 64 bits just using those tools being mainly able to just move files and edit xml (I know, that's a bit of an understatement, but you get it). And yes, I know a large part of our sceneries are in a relatively simple data format with *might* work in 64 bits as such, but ORBX sceneries sport a lot of features which can't.

 

On the other hand, how will you adapt FTX AUS SP4 to a new simulator runways + navaids database, maybe even an updatable one, automatically? As far as I understand, at least the older FTX sceneries embed tons of default airports and navdata, where at least part of them will be modified.

 

And these are changes to foresee. There might even come deeper ones no one of us can judge right now. The only alternative would be to send Prepar3d into agony. That's where FSX has been for years, and nearly all of us are happy now, LM and DT opened a way into the future.

 

Kind regards, Michael

namesake! we are tallking about different things, if listn you, i'm retrograde, but i tallking without time abstractions, past or future, only about granted, we have some yet worked in p3d, something what works in fsx, something work perfect, something glitch, and something only visual good, so why i ask Alex Goof, how much from installers was reworked, and how much just add p3d part of installer(s), i love new installers, some of them for example do not have dll module, so is reworked in any way, some of them have new fresh performance, etc. so is beautyfull, but some of them stay same, so why devs has to give their time for nothing, just for user can install without port trick, so if say about perspective, i never tallk about how it should be, i just do not know, but if user can install perfect worked fsx/p1d/p2d addon to p3d, so why devs, have to waste their time to new installer? for wat? 

[DesertPilot]

I also have pre-ordered DTG Flight School, mainly to get a feel for the latest technology. After purchasing and exploring the amazing, stunning and outstanding KTEX Telluride scenery that incorporates the latest technology, I have realized that I will tend to direct my limited future flightsim dollars towards the latest and greatest sceneries (and technology) of the future. On whatever platform--P3Dv3, P3Dv4, DTG Flight Simulator, etc.

 

Before Orbx, I spent quite a bit on plain photoscenery without autogen (MSE, etc), but that has now pretty much faded into the past. And I probably would pay to upgrade only certain Orbx sceneries--especially the more complex, richer ones--to future flight simulators. The older, more basic sceneries, I'd likely leave in P3Dv3--and JV did indicate a lot of older products would be moved into a 'Legacy' category, which is just fine with me.

 

[Neil]

Well we all wanted this didn't we, the holy grail of 64 bit! I have no problem with upgrade costs, programmer time costs money. Hopefully P3DV3 will settle down, V1,and 2 should just be abandoned. When you think about costs, 3 years ago I bought a high end rig (about $2400 CDN), and a 32" flatscreen ($400), this year upgraded to a 42" Ultra Wide ($1100), new vid card GTX 980 ($1100). I have pretty much all the Orbx products (very early customer). This is a little like owning a small boat (without the moorage fees), I am hooked. Will take John's advice and order DTG Flight School, and now to Telluride. The future looks quite interesting

[Scott Harmes]

I am one of the users that have multiple simulators installed (FSX:SE, P3D V2.5 , P3D V3 about to be reinstalled) due to to the fact that some aircraft and scenery are only compatible with different simulators.  I will probably uninstall P3D V2.5 soon, as most of the applicable add ons are now or soon to be compatible with P3D V3.  This is not to mention the multiple combat aircraft sims I use and the other PC titles I barely find time to use.  I have gone through multiple iterations of some ORBX titles without even flying in them, and as such I am not even considering an upgrade again for (?) years, no matter what the industry is doing.

 

I do appreciate the candour of the OP and of this thread in general, so I am adding my two cents in kind.  I have spent a lot of money on FSX and P3D add ons, probably (definitely!) too much.  Like I say I have more than a few titles I have not yet found the time to use.  I may end up being compared to one of those that are now die hard FS2004 stalwarts, as I can't see myself upgrading to "yet another" version of P3D when I have barely used Versions 2 and 3 enough to consider it getting my money's worth on the sims alone.  I will most likely continue to buy add ons, I can't see that stopping, and I am considering the new DTG simulators just to have a look, although I won't be filling up my hard drives with more and more simulators.  I will not be abandoning products I have not used or have barely used.  That would just be nonsensical and a waste.

 

All this talk of P3D V4 is unbelievable really, and I think it is a waste of time for us (customers) to even be thinking about it.  P3D V3 has been out about 6 or 7 months!  As long as the current breed of simulators continue to be supported when the eventual change comes, I really won't care one way or the other.  So that being said, for the purpose of why we're here in the first place... Happy flights!

 

Cheers,

[tangjuice81]

Thanks for the update again John. However, is it worth upgrading from FSX to Prepared 3d for an avid user of FSX? 

[Stewart Hobson]

Juice,  Most, if not all, avid P3D users would answer "Yes."  But your mileage may vary, of course.  At this moment, I don't see the point in paying X amount of dollars to pay for the privilege of being a beta tester.   Think about it.  Down the line, maybe at the end of the year, I may go for it, but not now.  Call me a stick-in-the-mud, but I fly FSX for the (simulated) experience of flying a variety of aircraft in Orbx land and for no other reason.  If/when a 64-bit flight sim comes out, I'll be there to try it out, but will keep FSX on my rig until it truly becomes obsolete, and that won't be for awhile yet.  P3D users will say it's already obsolete, but not for me it isn't.  Just my humble opinion.  No flames, please.

[John Venema]

Well put it this way, P3Dv3 is what about 90%+ of the Orbx developers are using. They only have the other sim versions installed for compatibility testing. If you want the best visuals, lighting, stability, VAS management and performance then P3Dv3.2 is the current pinnacle.

 

You only have to look at FILOU's, John Lovell's and Iain Emms' amazing screenshots to see the potential.