MSFS has great potential

[farman]

5 hours ago, craigeaglefire said:

 

the choice is yours alone, Darren,

 

i have all the flight sims you mention & more,

 

MFS is now another really cool sim (& of course improvements are down the line),

 

i'll go so far to say that MFS is the best 'bang for buck' flight sim $purchase i have made so far.

 

YMMV

Hi,

  of course there are lots of improvements, bugs and issues to be fixed, not to mention the lack fo payware planes. But after a couple of days flying in ev'ry weather/day hour condition, I can't even imagine to get back to P3D that, after HF3, IMHO has worsened some issues instead of fix them. 

  The landscapes are outstanding, the colours! No need of any REX, so far.

       Fulvio

[JoseCFII]

Like most simmers I tried the new sim the day it was released. I was so excited prior to release that I was already looking forward to buying Orbx add-on airports.

 

Unfortunately it only lasted a day on my SSD.

 

The things I liked:

 

1) Photo scenery of the whole world with at least winter seasonal textures. (This alone is worth the price of entry, but you need a fast internet connection or downloaded regions.)

2) Night lighting is incredible!

3) Weather gen system & user options are fantastic!

4) The water waves changed with the wind. Awesome!

5) You can change the time without reloading the sim. (I love this!)

6) World map was cool!

 

What I hated:

 

1) Loading times.

2) Setting up controllers was time consuming and at times ineffective.

3) Once the sim loaded performance was sluggish in large cities, even with medium setting. Stutters and pauses reigned supreme. (Tweaking anyone?)

4) I'll take one quality plane such as the A2A 172 over everything else in the default sim.

5) Airports missing or incomplete.

6) Blocky trees, blurries, and level of detail in the distance was worse than P3D.

7) ATC (one voice, really?) ATC does not control AI.

8)  Ground services feature was LOL buggy!

9) My Tq6 throttle did not work and at the time of testing GoFlight modules were not supported.

10) It just was NOT an enjoyable experience.

 

It certainly has potential for those with an unlimited supply of credit or financial freedom. The cost will be in the thousands!

 

But for a "poor" (due to pandemic) CFII like me, it left a lot to be desired so I've decided to stick with my trusty old P3D v4.5.

 

It might be old and grey, but at least it works!

[Darren Howie]

I must say i think some of the frustration of participating in the Alpha and Beta is showing through so i will probably just ignore msfs until a decent aircraft gets released.

With MS clamping devs so as not to be allowed into areas of the sim they need it will be a long time till we see a good modern jet.

Hopefully we get a great DC-3 or something else that has immersion and accuracy etc but with MS on the security high horse on access blocking devs from being able to use methods they have used for 20 years to make good aircraft im not holding my breath..

[Dario]

Like some said, I also miss immersive aircraft in MSFS. I hope they start to be released this year. Despite this fact, my experience with MSFS, so far, has been very positive.

 

On the negative side, I need to mention that I turned off the boring ATC (did any sim offer a nice default ATC in the past?) and I chose to fly only GA aircraft, because I totally hate those default MSFS airliners. 

 

Now for the positive side of it. What I see here is a sim with lots of potential, as the thread title says, with stunning worldwide terrain coverage, stunning weather depiction and great FPS (I get 3 times the FPS I got in P3D v4.5 and more than twice the FPS I got in XP11).

 

In the beginning, I think companies like Orbx should focus on small airfields. It's so pleasant to fly low and slow in MSFS, because of the level of terrain detail, and also because the default GA planes are not bad. I would love to see Orbx airfields (e.g. UK, Washington, Australia) ported to MSFS, and also many new airfields in different regions of the world. MSFS is, IMHO, a revolutionary sim, which raises the bar to new levels.  I never saw I simulator offer as much as it does straight out of the box.

 

I own lots of sceneries Orbx released for P3D, and all the sceneries Orbx released for XP11. Currently, I am using P3D for PMDG 737 flights only, XP11 when I want immersive aircraft plus a lovely world representation, and starting to explore the world in MSFS.

 

I believe that, once we get more realistic airports for MSFS and also realistic airplanes, MSFS will be my only sim. 

 

 

[aero-3fsx]

This discussion is similar to almost every new sim version when released

I remember the crazy complaints when FSX was released and not all were justified or sensible

By the end of the year many more bugs will be ironed out, several good 3rd party planes available and perhaps some new innovative addons too

In any case P3D & Xplane will rise to the challenge and Orbx will without doubt do so too

 

[Ron Attwood]

On 9/3/2020 at 12:51 PM, aero-3fsx said:

This discussion is similar to almost every new sim version when released

 

And they will be for every subsequent version of Flight Simulator on down the ages.

Microsoft Flight Simulator 2150 has been released unfinished. How could they? It's a disgrace!

[dtrjones]

On 8/30/2020 at 10:34 PM, craigeaglefire said:

like you, very disappointed at the lack of helicopters - surely an advanced flight model system should have incorporated rotorcraft from the initial stages of planning.

 

Likewise, the current lack of VR is also disappointing - particularly given VR currently works well in other flight sims - & all we have now is a promise of VR for MFS (seems silly given the recent development of the Reverb G2 with Microsoft as development partner).

 

Very interesting comments. If as most people had thought MFS had come out later in the year Q4 say, then there is a very good chance the next payed update will be helicopters and the September/October will very likely see support for the WMR headsets with the rest of the HMD's to follow (although I'm almost certain that won't be an issue to get the others working day1)

[wolfko]

8 hours ago, dtrjones said:

then there is a very good chance the next payed update...

 

 

Payed update? Didn't they say all updates will be free?

[craigeaglefire]

8 hours ago, dtrjones said:

 

Very interesting comments.

my main comment is MFS is excellent flight sim $value - I use standard version with 3PD addons - & will be patient until VR (in progress now) & helicopters are available.

 

meanwhile, MFS works very well now, imo - with some spectacular scenery & performance - alongside all the other flight sims.

[andy1252]

On 9/3/2020 at 11:25 AM, Dario said:

I turned off the boring ATC

Hi Dario, can I ask how you do this? It's quite possibly some obvious function but I haven't spotted it - I just figured out how to turn the volume off on the radio set within a couple of aircraft but I'd like to just can the whole thing. Doesn't the idiot understand that to keep on at me with all this "please acknowledge" is just going to p*** me off and he's still not going to get an answer?

[andy1252]

While I'm here I might as well stick my two penn'orth in. I really rate this sim. Sure, there are issues with things like the bridges and blocky lumps in places, and I really miss being able to save and replay a flight, but set against that there are huge areas of the planet that were previously ignored in all the other sims that are now actually populated and very realistic (not necessarily accurate, I suspect, but visually believable).

 

I'll live with a few dodgy trees and flaky objects in exchange for being able to visit places like Teheran, Tel-Aviv, Almaty, Kuala Lumpur etc (to name just a few I've tried) and feel like I am actually visiting somewhere. There's some impressive stuff to be discovered. And that drone cam is absolute magic, next best thing to my long awaited magic carpet - I want this in all the sims!

 

And I've still got TrueEarth and XP with all their faqcilites as well. But I will definitely be going back in at some point and tidying up my P3D setup. Lots of slightly (or even hugely) dodgy scenery in there that I no longer want to see. I'd love to see all the various Orbx airfields ported to 2020, and I'm reasonably confident they mostly will be in time.

 

Loads more stuff will come. We're just over two weeks in at this point!

[farman]

Completely agreed. I'LL NEVER COME BACK TO P3D. Especially the v5+HF3 has worsened things instead of make them better. 

[Anthony96]

I still have to get it once all bugs has been cleared 

[BradB]

17 hours ago, andy1252 said:

Hi Dario, can I ask how you do this? It's quite possibly some obvious function but I haven't spotted it - I just figured out how to turn the volume off on the radio set within a couple of aircraft but I'd like to just can the whole thing. Doesn't the idiot understand that to keep on at me with all this "please acknowledge" is just going to p*** me off and he's still not going to get an answer?

Go to the traffic options underneath the General settings, and it should be the first option underneath Aviation Traffic. You can choose between AI control, Real-time traffic, or turn it off entirely. For those using the Real-time traffic, you'll see any actual aircraft from around the world reenacted on-screen.Aug 19, 2020

 

John

[wolfko]

23 hours ago, andy1252 said:

I'll live with a few dodgy trees and flaky objects in exchange for being able to visit places like Teheran, Tel-Aviv, Almaty, Kuala Lumpur etc (to name just a few I've tried) and feel like I am actually visiting somewhere. There's some impressive stuff to be discovered. And that drone cam is absolute magic, next best thing to my long awaited magic carpet - I want this in all the sims!

 

 

Fully agree! MSFS gives you literally the opportunity to

"explore strange new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilisations; to boldly go where no man has gone before."

But when I read the forums, I get the impression that most simmers using MSFS are still sticking only to their home turf or at the best only to areas they are already familiar with.

[Fizzelle]

Wolfko my dear chap, whilst your claims about seeking out new civilisations are very laudable I must take issue with "to boldly go".

 

It should of course be "to go boldly" to prevent the splitting of the infinitive.

 

A classic example is the following: "Do not go quietly into the night.." Do you see the difference there? How wrong it would sound if one were to say, "Do not quietly go into the night".

 

Whew! I feel sooo much better now 

[andy1252]

8 hours ago, BradB said:

Go to the traffic options underneath the General settings, and it should be the first option underneath Aviation Traffic. You can choose between AI control, Real-time traffic, or turn it off entirely. For those using the Real-time traffic, you'll see any actual aircraft from around the world reenacted on-screen.Aug 19, 2020

 

John

Hi John, and thanks for the response. The option you mentioned though is for actual AI traffic, but I tried it as I thought maybe ATC was connected to that. Turns out it isn't and this option is purely for the actual AI Traffic levels.

 

I did find what I was looking for in the end though. In case anyone else is interested (and hasn't found it yet), you have two options.

 

To have AI handle the annoying messages and give all the appropriate reponses - Options - Assistance - Piloting - Delegate ATC to AI > ON

This will stop the nagging but now you get two voices rabbiting on all the time.

 

To turn it off altogether and fly in silence (apart from any possible screaming passengers <grin>)  - Options - Assistance - User Experience - ATC Voices > OFF

 

This last one is what I will probably stick with for sightseeing. I might play with the former option if I want to see what I'm actually supposed to be doing at any point.

[wolfko]

1 hour ago, andy1252 said:

Hi John, and thanks for the response. The option you mentioned though is for actual AI traffic, but I tried it as I thought maybe ATC was connected to that. Turns out it isn't and this option is purely for the actual AI Traffic levels.

 

I did find what I was looking for in the end though. In case anyone else is interested (and hasn't found it yet), you have two options.

 

To have AI handle the annoying messages and give all the appropriate reponses - Options - Assistance - Piloting - Delegate ATC to AI > ON

This will stop the nagging but now you get two voices rabbiting on all the time.

 

To turn it off altogether and fly in silence (apart from any possible screaming passengers <grin>)  - Options - Assistance - User Experience - ATC Voices > OFF

 

This last one is what I will probably stick with for sightseeing. I might play with the former option if I want to see what I'm actually supposed to be doing at any point.

 

Just change the frequency after starting the enigines. Then you have quiet until you fly into a control zone where the tuned frequency is accidently the active one. Then just change the frequency again.

 

 

 

[andy1252]

31 minutes ago, wolfko said:

 

Just change the frequency after starting the enigines. Then you have quiet until you fly into a control zone where the tuned frequency is accidently the active one. Then just change the frequency again.

 

Wolfgang, thanks for the suggestion but I'm not any kind of serious "flyer", so any ATC noise is just an intrusion to me. If I ever get round to being more concerned about what's going on inside the cockpit rather than out there on the ground I'll learn to live with ATC, but for now, it's just (spurious) noise to me. I could possibly even live with it apart from all the "please acknowledge" stuff - who does the guy think he is, my mother?

[wolfko]

51 minutes ago, andy1252 said:

who does the guy think he is, my mother?

 

You gave me a good laugh.

[Surfspin]

As a long time flight simulator user and stutter victim I welcome a reset, even at the cost of all my previous investments.  I could honestly say that P3D v5 is smooth and if I get stutters now it is self inflicted for sure.  I have become a huge fan of Orbx's products and TrueEarth has blown me away with it's realism.   With MSFS the realism of Bing maps seems as equally pleasing but the Photogrammery is a bust for me, I live off grid with a satellite connection.    So, I fly with Bing maps on and default auto gen with my more less OK aircraft with real weather and traffic, not bad.  I have also added all US Orbx airports, London POI and some freeware.  So here is my wish list from Orbx should it make business sense.

 

TrueEarth for MSFS = I would rather download a product once and not have to cache or re-cache, maybe Microsoft makes improvements here.

 

Airport and more Airports = Keep doing what you are great at

 

Cities and Objects = Replace those auto gen or default buildings with downloadable photo representations, I think this could be the best improvement by far for us that cannot use Photogrammery. 

 

Safe flights,

 

Don

 

 

[farman]

+1

[JoseCFII]

On 9/3/2020 at 5:54 AM, JoseCFII said:

Like most simmers I tried the new sim the day it was released. I was so excited prior to release that I was already looking forward to buying Orbx add-on airports.

 

Unfortunately it only lasted a day on my SSD.

 

The things I liked:

 

1) Photo scenery of the whole world with at least winter seasonal textures. (This alone is worth the price of entry, but you need a fast internet connection or downloaded regions.)

2) Night lighting is incredible!

3) Weather gen system & user options are fantastic!

4) The water waves changed with the wind. Awesome!

5) You can change the time without reloading the sim. (I love this!)

6) World map was cool!

 

What I hated:

 

1) Loading times.

2) Setting up controllers was time consuming and at times ineffective.

3) Once the sim loaded performance was sluggish in large cities, even with medium setting. Stutters and pauses reigned supreme. (Tweaking anyone?)

4) I'll take one quality plane such as the A2A 172 over everything else in the default sim.

5) Airports missing or incomplete.

6) Blocky trees, blurries, and level of detail in the distance was worse than P3D.

7) ATC (one voice, really?) ATC does not control AI.

Ground services feature was LOL buggy!

9) My Tq6 throttle did not work and at the time of testing GoFlight modules were not supported.

10) It just was NOT an enjoyable experience.

 

It certainly has potential for those with an unlimited supply of credit or financial freedom. The cost will be in the thousands!

 

But for a "poor" (due to pandemic) CFII like me, it left a lot to be desired so I've decided to stick with my trusty old P3D v4.5.

 

It might be old and grey, but at least it works!

I'd like to update this post with the following:

 

After the 1st patch something amazing happened. I'm now able to run the sim at high settings in cities and my controllers work. I'd be a happier man if I can get my GoFlight modules to work. That will require software support for a company that right now seems non-existent. 

 

There's one thing that I did that probably made a huge difference. I enabled HT. Who would have thought that an old i72600K would even run the next gen sim.

 

Today, I'm enthralled by this new adventure!

[dtrjones]

On 9/5/2020 at 8:04 AM, wolfko said:

 

Payed update? Didn't they say all updates will be free?

 

Just to clarify a couple of points. Asobo and MS will provide updates to the core sim (this will include VR and seasons eventually), scenery updates and additional content for free.

 

There will also be paid DLC. I believe one of these will be arriving in Q4 and will see the introduction of Helicopters.

 

I believe Microsoft have said helicoptors will be free - I can't remember who corrected me on that, thank you but I suspect this will also in addition to a free helicoptor or two include a paid update which will have missions and scenery supporting the release of helicoptors. Just a hunch, we'll see.

[dtrjones]

On 9/3/2020 at 10:54 AM, JoseCFII said:

5) Airports missing or incomplete.

 

I'm willing to cut them some slack here. Looking at the forums, there's plenty of activity with people fixing up airports.

 

Remember nobody has hand edited airports in satelite aerial imagery before on the scale of well the world. To put it in content the number of registered airports in the UK is 296 - far less would have been edited in TrueEarth GB for P3D. Asobo hand edited 37,000 airports.

[Surfspin]

On 9/6/2020 at 1:03 PM, farman said:

+1

I see my post was remove mocking this post.  It is OK.  I will slither away and do another flight.   Happy flying Mr. +1257

[Nick Cooper]

8 hours ago, Surfspin said:

I see my post was remove mocking this post.  It is OK.  I will slither away and do another flight.   Happy flying Mr. +1257

 

+1 simply means that the person agrees with you.

It was and still is clear that you read something else into it entirely,

so I removed your reply.

 

If you don't know what something means, the internet will usually tell you.

 

Quote

 

+1

1.) A post in a forum/message board that indicates the person agrees with a previous or quoted reply to a thread.

2.) Shorthand for "My thoughts exactly" or "me too".

 

 

[Dario]

On 9/5/2020 at 10:38 AM, andy1252 said:

Hi Dario, can I ask how you do this? It's quite possibly some obvious function but I haven't spotted it - I just figured out how to turn the volume off on the radio set within a couple of aircraft but I'd like to just can the whole thing. Doesn't the idiot understand that to keep on at me with all this "please acknowledge" is just going to p*** me off and he's still not going to get an answer?

 

Hi Andy @andy1252,

 

Sorry if my answer comes too late. This is what I did in order to not being bothered by ATC (user experience section): 

 

 

Best regards,

Dario

[andy1252]

37 minutes ago, Dario said:

 

Hi Andy @andy1252,

 

Sorry if my answer comes too late. This is what I did in order to not being bothered by ATC (user experience section):

Dario

 

Hi Dario,

 

no worries, thanks for replying. I had found this now, so silence reigns at last. Boy that ATC guy could be annoying - never knew when to give up!

[Dario]

2 hours ago, andy1252 said:

 

Hi Dario,

 

no worries, thanks for replying. I had found this now, so silence reigns at last. Boy that ATC guy could be annoying - never knew when to give up!

Hi Andy, 

 

Glad the guy now is silent. What a difference it makes to fly without this fellow  

[Peaveywolf]

On 8/30/2020 at 6:26 PM, olderndirt said:

Methinks MSFS has acquired a very large group of paying beta testers - how clever is that?

So the same thing that P3D did with v5 then.

[Ron Attwood]

2 hours ago, Peaveywolf said:

So the same thing that P3D did with v5 then.

 

And v1, 2, 3, and 4 let's not forget.

[Mawson]

On 9/9/2020 at 9:21 PM, Peaveywolf said:

So the same thing that P3D did with v5 then.

I guess the difference is that all the versions of P3D had full functionality and we paid to beta test a full function sim and not beta test an  early release title. MSFS is an early release title IMHO as-it is still missing a lot of functionality compared to say the latest retail release of X Plane 11.5 or P3D V5.

[David Woodford]

Don’t get me started on taxiways..

 

oh well.. do.. 

 

In MSFS taxiway names are made up randomly. You certainly can’t try and Vatsim with them.. In April I successfully navigated around the globe in fsx using the default atc.. bar the occasional collision on final ‘follow the 747 on final’ errr what 747... BANG it got me there eventually. ATC in msfs is an unfinished product and ifr a nightmare.

 

At least Navigraph have updated the approach procedures in their msfs beta.

 

Nonetheless, my home airport - the one where I fly irl is generally worse than Orbx True Earth and wheras Taxiway A and and hold point A1 were fine in FSX and P3D they are not in MSFS. How can I try and revisit lessons when my own airport atc is talking bobbins?

 

sigh... at least it loads fast.

[Scott Harmes]

8 hours ago, Mawson said:

I guess the difference is that all the versions of P3D had full functionality and we paid to beta test a full function sim and not beta test an  early release title. MSFS is an early release title IMHO as-it is still missing a lot of functionality compared to say the latest retail release of X Plane 11.5 or P3D V5.

 

It is, and I don't think Microsoft or Asobo have said otherwise.  It is also a brand new technology embeded in to a flight sim for the first time.  I'm sure you can understand the complexity of such a project.  The alternative of course is to not release the simulator to the public for another 2, 3, 4, 5 years, while they perfect the technology and the simulator and beta test (all?) most of the bugs out.  I for one would much rather access to an incomplete product than no access at all.  I think the new sim offers something brand new, and it is amazing.  I am also still enjoying P3D and XP11, as well as DCS World and others when I have the time.  All these sims have something to offer and I am glad to be able to use them.

[wolfko]

In regards to the launch of FSX, P3d and XP some of us seem to have a very short memory. For me all of these sims have not been flyable at all out of the box.

Don't you remember the continuous OOMs, CTDs, dreaded blurries etc. in FSX/P3d/XP?

The FSX/P3d/XP default sceneries have been horrible and they still are. Without Orbx I could not fly in those default worlds. The flight dynamics of the default planes were ridiculous and the planes hardly flyable. Whereas the FDs of the MSFS planes are pretty good, at least the GA's ones (I haven't flown the heavies yet).

Although some POIs are missing in MSFS VFR flying is nearly perfectly pissible, which was not possible at all in the other sims at launch.

FSX/P3d/XP out of the box weather, lighting, looks of clouds, water masking etc. are not "flyable" for me at all.

Many of us seem to make the mistake to compare MSFS out of the box with FSX/P3d/XP having hundreds of add ons installed.

 

 

[Mawson]

22 hours ago, wolfko said:

In regards to the launch of FSX, P3d and XP some of us seem to have a very short memory. For me all of these sims have not been flyable at all out of the box.

Don't you remember the continuous OOMs, CTDs, dreaded blurries etc. in FSX/P3d/XP?

The FSX/P3d/XP default sceneries have been horrible and they still are. Without Orbx I could not fly in those default worlds. The flight dynamics of the default planes were ridiculous and the planes hardly flyable. Whereas the FDs of the MSFS planes are pretty good, at least the GA's ones (I haven't flown the heavies yet).

Although some POIs are missing in MSFS VFR flying is nearly perfectly pissible, which was not possible at all in the other sims at launch.

FSX/P3d/XP out of the box weather, lighting, looks of clouds, water masking etc. are not "flyable" for me at all.

Many of us seem to make the mistake to compare MSFS out of the box with FSX/P3d/XP having hundreds of add ons installed.

 

 

I don't think anybody is making a mistake it's just you are trying to argue some value judgement to others as an out of the box exercise.

 

In that case MSFS 2020 is a complete failure to those users that want to fly helicopters or gliders or fast military jets  or use VR as these are simply not options  at the moment, I am aware  they (let me call  them the missing functions and there are more than what I just listed)  are supposed to be coming,  but with all the patches and bugs at the moment I hardly think the developers' will have them as the priority they once were.  When they are in place and working well enough to use I guess we can get a better idea of the value proposition of MSFS 2020.

 

I am sure there are users that find MSFS 2020 perfect as they fly GA bug smashers and want to land at a different airport for the rest of your life every 5 minutes  then MSFS 2020 is unbeatable value so long as you like your low level scenery that's come out of the twilight zone.

 

 I fly helicopters and like to stick to areas that I know so it's not such a big investment to buy the add ons I want so I want  the best simulator overall not just the cheapest value out of the box simulator and I know a lot of the rivet counters like myself will pay to get what we want rather than compromise.  Now having said that what we are now finding is that MSFS 2020 also requires you to buy add ons so I don't think its possible with MSFS in its current early release form to make a judgement and say all of us except you are mistaken.  

 

[Mawson]

On 9/13/2020 at 5:10 PM, Scott Harmes said:

 

It is, and I don't think Microsoft or Asobo have said otherwise.  It is also a brand new technology embeded in to a flight sim for the first time.  I'm sure you can understand the complexity of such a project.  The alternative of course is to not release the simulator to the public for another 2, 3, 4, 5 years, while they perfect the technology and the simulator and beta test (all?) most of the bugs out.  I for one would much rather access to an incomplete product than no access at all.  I think the new sim offers something brand new, and it is amazing.  I am also still enjoying P3D and XP11, as well as DCS World and others when I have the time.  All these sims have something to offer and I am glad to be able to use them.

I bought it to support the franchise but as you said it will be at least a year or more before I think I will start looking at it seriously.

[wolfko]

@Mawson

 

PS: It was ever ever anywhere stated, that MSFS will have helis, gliders or fast military jets out of the box or that it would be VR ready. So it can't be a failure in this regards.

 

 

 

 

[perohijo]

On 8/31/2020 at 6:10 PM, Sniper31 said:

Well then Ron, we must be flying in two different sims, because they are all over anywhere I fly in the SoCal area, big and small. If I take of from KSBA, I can look out every window and see more than I can count. Now don't get me wrong, up in the PNW the trees are looking proper all over the place. Same in Europe. I do believe it's mostly the palm trees that are all over the place in SoCal that are the problem in my MSFS copy.

It is probably your stream or PC because I have been flying around California with 42 FRS and I love it! I didn't even have to do anything on my peripherals, and I love the real weather. Listen guys, I notice here everyone complaining more than anything else about the sim, but the truth is that I wasn't even expecting a new version of a sim from Microsoft, let alone something this cool. I am very grateful I can enjoy views as close to reality as this sim provides, and I have no problem waiting for updates. In my opinion, even with all the add ons, no other sim will come even close when MSFS is updated. Is just a matter of time but I do have full confidence it will get there.