JF Tristar Pro

[TigerTigerM]

In no way run to torture Jack

In digging around in the back of the P3D hangar I found the Just Flight Tristar L-1011 Pro. & many many liveries.

What I found interesting is that each livery/aircraft has a description of its past life, the other airlines that have flown that particular aircraft.

They seem to change hands quite often.

After updating my copy the livery below was sent from KSEA to Chicago.

Shots are over central Montana in Summer. It looks pretty arid there.

TTM

(P3D v4.5)

 

 

[BradB]

Doesn't look like torture to me , looks like absolute bliss .

 

Cheers

 

John

[JohnnyJohnJohn]

Nice ones TTM.  Always love seeing a classic tri-jet!

[lifejogger]

Excellent TTM and a very colorful jet!!!!!!!!!!

[Jack Sawyer]

Awesome TTM.  See how it flies slightly nose up?  They did this in real life too, the flight attendants didn't like it because pushing the beverage carts forward they were always walking up hill.

[carlosqr]

Love this plane, bought it as soon as it came out, searched it for so long..

I love to see it in Cathay livery and TWA, my favs for this plane

[adambar]

Great shots and livery T!

[TigerTigerM]

15 hours ago, Jack Sawyer said:

Awesome TTM.  See how it flies slightly nose up?  They did this in real life too, the flight attendants didn't like it because pushing the beverage carts forward they were always walking up hill.

I notice on approach I have to be very careful to not get the nose up too high or it starts to pancake.

BTW Jack, each livery comes in an INS & FMC version of that aircraft.

I know the FMC part, but what is the INS system??

TTM

[Jack Sawyer]

8 minutes ago, TigerTigerM said:

I notice on approach I have to be very careful to not get the nose up too high or it starts to pancake.

BTW Jack, each livery comes in an INS & FMC version of that aircraft.

I know the FMC part, but what is the INS system??

TTM

FMC's are modern, they're intuitive, INS's on the other hand are ancient, I mean it took me a lot of schooling on how to use them then they were phased out.  One thing I know is I would not want to waste my time re-learning these ancient dinosaur "computers."  INS stands for Inertial Nav System.

 

 

[carlosqr]

1 hour ago, TigerTigerM said:

I notice on approach I have to be very careful to not get the nose up too high or it starts to pancake.

If you lose the sustainability (there must be an aviation term for that in English, a more proper term) it falls like a brick, and incredibly fast, no matter if you push on the full thrust

I crash impressible on a hill trying on approach 

[TigerTigerM]

9 minutes ago, carlosqr said:

If you lose the sustainability (there must be an aviation term for that in English, a more proper term) it falls like a brick, and incredibly fast, no matter if you push on the full thrust

I crash impressible on a hill trying on approach 

I too have learned that

TTM

[Nick Cooper]

Hello Carlos,

you could write what I know about aviation on the back of a postage stamp, however I think that

"If you lose the sustainability" is a very elegant way of saying "if you stall the aircraft"

 

I find that aircraft often lose the sustainability while being flown by me and then do indeed fall

like a brick, usually backwards.

 

[TigerTigerM]

1 hour ago, Jack Sawyer said:

FMC's are modern, they're intuitive, INS's on the other hand are ancient, I mean it took me a lot of schooling on how to use them then they were phased out.  One thing I know is I would not want to waste my time re-learning these ancient dinosaur "computers."  INS stands for Inertial Nav System.

 

 

Jack, what's the trick to landing them?

TTM

[carlosqr]

3 minutes ago, Nick Cooper said:

Hello Carlos,

you could write what I know about aviation on the back of a postage stamp, however I think that

"If you lose the sustainability" is a very elegant way of saying "if you stall the aircraft"

 

I find that aircraft often lose the sustainability while being flown by me and then do indeed fall

like a brick, usually backwards.

 

Thanks a lot Nick

[TigerTigerM]

22 minutes ago, Nick Cooper said:

Hello Carlos,

you could write what I know about aviation on the back of a postage stamp, however I think that

"If you lose the sustainability" is a very elegant way of saying "if you stall the aircraft"

 

I find that aircraft often lose the sustainability while being flown by me and then do indeed fall

like a brick, usually backwards.

 

"I find that aircraft often lose the sustainability while being flown by me and then do indeed fall

like a brick, usually backwards."

 

Known in the trade as a 'tail slide'

TTM

[Jack Sawyer]

30 minutes ago, TigerTigerM said:

Jack, what's the trick to landing them?

TTM

Like any jet of any size it all depends on weight, that's the most critical aspect.  The V speeds are derived from QNH, temperature, and winds, and most importantly, weight.

 

There's a lot of math to it but there's plenty of good apps that will tell you what a given approach speed should be with the corresponding flap configuration.  Less flaps = higher V approach speed.  And vice versa.

 

The best thing to do once you have the correct landing speed is to dial in the approach speed +5 knots and let the autothrottle control the engines in while you hand land it.  Depending on a lot of things anywhere between a 500 to 700 foot per minute descent will usually suffice.

 

[TigerTigerM]

36 minutes ago, Jack Sawyer said:

Like any jet of any size it all depends on weight, that's the most critical aspect.  The V speeds are derived from QNH, temperature, and winds, and most importantly, weight.

 

There's a lot of math to it but there's plenty of good apps that will tell you what a given approach speed should be with the corresponding flap configuration.  Less flaps = higher V approach speed.  And vice versa.

 

The best thing to do once you have the correct landing speed is to dial in the approach speed +5 knots and let the autothrottle control the engines in while you hand land it.  Depending on a lot of things anywhere between a 500 to 700 foot per minute descent will usually suffice.

 

Thanks Jack, useful insights.

I like the auto throttle suggestion as I think the approach speed manual throttling is what I am getting wrong. Tend to land short, dropping too much speed.

TTM

[Jack Sawyer]

1 hour ago, TigerTigerM said:

Thanks Jack, useful insights.

I like the auto throttle suggestion as I think the approach speed manual throttling is what I am getting wrong. Tend to land short, dropping too much speed.

TTM

And remember one more thing TTM, if they came close to real life with this jet those RB211’s are notoriously slow to spool up.  It’s not like a prop plane or even a light jet, a large turbofan jet takes several seconds to respond.   Look at the Dallas L-10 crash, only one test pilot could ever get out of that wind shear when they reproduced it in a Level-D sim.  He slammed the throttles to the firewall but those engines seemed to take forever to produce thrust.

[TigerTigerM]

1 hour ago, Jack Sawyer said:

And remember one more thing TTM, if they came close to real life with this jet those RB211’s are notoriously slow to spool up.  It’s not like a prop plane or even a light jet, a large turbofan jet takes several seconds to respond.   Look at the Dallas L-10 crash, only one test pilot could ever get out of that wind shear when they reproduced it in a Level-D sim.  He slammed the throttles to the firewall but those engines seemed to take forever to produce thrust.

Yes, they take awhile!

I have been test landing the JF Tristar & the CS L1011 per your auto throttle/AP landing approach suggestion.

So far without success, but I am learning.

The JF with FD & AP on & auto throttle set at 150 kias comes in nicely until about 190 kia when it starts to sink quickly, & the elevators are semi locked flat.  So it lands short with many alarms going off.

The CS comes in very nicely at 150 kia, the auto throttle readout changes from '150 kia to 'alpha' & she just keeps floating along, even with full flaps. & the elevator is tractable.

Very elegant overshoot result so far.

But she doesn't drop like a brick!

I sense that the height & distance out at which the AP/auto throttle is applied has something to do with the results I am getting.

But its an enjoyable learning experience.

TTM

[Rodger Pettichord]

TTM classic shots of a classic plane. Thanks!

[Jack Sawyer]

5 minutes ago, TigerTigerM said:

Yes, they take awhile!

I have been test landing the JF Tristar & the CS L1011 per your auto throttle/AP landing approach suggestion.

So far without success, but I am learning.

The JF with FD & AP on & auto throttle set at 150 kias comes in nicely until about 190 kia when it starts to sink quickly, & the elevators are semi locked flat.  So it lands short with many alarms going off.

The CS comes in very nicely at 150 kia, the auto throttle readout changes from '150 kia to 'alpha' & she just keeps floating along, even with full flaps. & the elevator is tractable.

Very elegant overshoot result so far.

But she doesn't drop like a brick!

I sense that the height & distance out at which the AP/auto throttle is applied has something to do with the results I am getting.

But its an enjoyable learning experience.

TTM

Unless you're doing an autoland you need to disconnect autopilot before landing or the plane could very well keep flying.  These systems need to be told what to do as they're basically very fast idiots.  For example, when I fly the NGX, 747, 777, or A320 lately I've been disconnecting the autopilot and even autothrottle several miles before landing to hand fly it to the runway.

 

But a lot of the time I'll set it up with an ILS freq, let the plane fly the STAR, several miles out I disconnect the autopilot but keep the auto throttles at approach speed +5.  So remember this, if you fly an approach on autopilot the plane configures the flight controls for a smooth decent.  Now if you disconnect the A/P what are the flight controls going to do?  Stay where they are so it's a nice trick to get your jet ready for landing, letting it do it itself, then disconnect and hand fly it.

 

I have no idea why the JF would do this, it's not correct.  You should not be speeding up to 190 kts if the autothrottle is set.  About the only thing I can think that would cause an increase in speed is a very steep descent.

[TigerTigerM]

6 minutes ago, Jack Sawyer said:

Unless you're doing an autoland you need to disconnect autopilot before landing or the plane could very well keep flying.  These systems need to be told what to do as they're basically very fast idiots.  For example, when I fly the NGX, 747, 777, or A320 lately I've been disconnecting the autopilot and even autothrottle several miles before landing to hand fly it to the runway.

 

But a lot of the time I'll set it up with an ILS freq, let the plane fly the STAR, several miles out I disconnect the autopilot but keep the auto throttles at approach speed +5.  So remember this, if you fly an approach on autopilot the plane configures the flight controls for a smooth decent.  Now if you disconnect the A/P what are the flight controls going to do?  Stay where they are so it's a nice trick to get your jet ready for landing, letting it do it itself, then disconnect and hand fly it.

 

I have no idea why the JF would do this, it's not correct.  You should not be speeding up to 190 kts if the autothrottle is set.  About the only thing I can think that would cause an increase in speed is a very steep descent.

The JF -  its not speeding up to 190, its coming down from 225 to the A/P set 150. When it hits around 190 as its slowing down it starts to sink. The CS doesn't sink as its speed drops down to the 150. It's a nicer aircraft to land.

TTM

[Jack Sawyer]

1 minute ago, TigerTigerM said:

The JF -  its not speeding up to 190, its coming down from 225 to the A/P set 150. When it hits around 190 as its slowing down it starts to sink. The CS doesn't sink as its speed drops down to the 150. It's a nicer aircraft to land.

TTM

Ok, I see now.  Then I would suggest your approach speed is too low.  Are you using any flight planning software to figure v-speeds?  It's very important to get the correct speeds.

[TigerTigerM]

1 hour ago, Jack Sawyer said:

Ok, I see now.  Then I would suggest your approach speed is too low.  Are you using any flight planning software to figure v-speeds?  It's very important to get the correct speeds.

Seat of the pants.

I read in on line notes they usually come in between 140 & 150 kia

I am starting 10 miles out from airport at 3,500' & 225 kia.

Does the Tristar usually take a long flat approach or a shorter steeper approach?

TTM

[Jack Sawyer]

2 minutes ago, TigerTigerM said:

Seat of the pants.

I read in on line notes they usually come in between 140 & 150 kia

I am starting 10 miles out from airport at 3,500' & 225 kia.

Does the Tristar usually take a long flat approach or a shorter steeper approach?

TTM

These speeds sound right, the approach is different on every flight, so many variables.  Weight, winds, flap settings, ILS angle, way too many variables.

Seat of the pants in this plane, that’s cool, with enough practice you’ll get it.  Try faster landing speeds above 150 and see how you do.  What’s important is angle of attack so you don’t stall.