Mac_Maddog88 Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Hey ORBX, thanks a ton for this. I love the screenshots you put out, especially of The Hoover Dam. This is going to be quite the release! Question: Was Vegas designed to blend with FSDreamteam McCarran at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Hobson Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I'm wondering about that too. I figure as long as FSDT's McCarran is above the Orbx stuff, it'll be fine. Unless, of course, McCarran was developed with the default mesh in mind, then we'll have to make some adjustments. Wait and see. Stew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonW Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Hopefully they found a cure for that nasty plateau if you use FSDT KLAS and Pilots mesh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconAF Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 The FSDT KLAS has always had the plateau problem, and I doubt installing NA SCA will solve it. It was made for the default FSX terrain mesh, and that's that. The fact the airport is not level in real life is the problem. Look at the airport chart in AirNav or similar and you will see there is roughly a 150-foot elevation difference on the ends of the 7/25 runways, and a 100-foot elevation difference on the ends of the 1/19 runways. Any "flatten" file used for the airport...even with the default FSX mesh...is going to leave a cliff on some end of the airport. Using a more accurate terrain mesh will just make it more noticable. Toss in any other Las Vegas specific scenery you may have, like using a Strip specific addon for the hotels, etc, and it can get really wonky. I honestly don't know how FSDT could "fix" it even with their upcoming Version 2 for KLAS. Short of building a complete Las Vegas scenery with an included KLAS using "sloped" elevation runways, it can't happen. Enlarging any flatten file to extend farther beyond the airport boundaries just moves the "cliffs" farther away from the airport, and you end up having the cliff half way to Nellis AFB or splitting the Strip in two. Believe me, I've lived here in Las Vegas for 13 years. I've tried EVERYTHING combination-wise to "fix" it. I've just learned to live with it, because the FSDT KLAS looks so good to begin with. Sometimes we just have to give in to the "virtual reality" limitations inherent to our hobby. My favorite saying during 3 decades of flight simming is always, "Don't sweat the small stuff." Especially if you really can't do anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonGekko Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 1 hour ago, FalconAF said: The FSDT KLAS has always had the plateau problem, and I doubt installing NA SCA will solve it. It was made for the default FSX terrain mesh, and that's that. The FSDT KLAS actually has its own custom mesh file, so it wasn't designed for default FSX mesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Hobson Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 10 hours ago, FalconAF said: The FSDT KLAS has always had the plateau problem, and I doubt installing NA SCA will solve it. It was made for the default FSX terrain mesh, and that's that. The fact the airport is not level in real life is the problem. Look at the airport chart in AirNav or similar and you will see there is roughly a 150-foot elevation difference on the ends of the 7/25 runways, and a 100-foot elevation difference on the ends of the 1/19 runways. Any "flatten" file used for the airport...even with the default FSX mesh...is going to leave a cliff on some end of the airport. Using a more accurate terrain mesh will just make it more noticable. Toss in any other Las Vegas specific scenery you may have, like using a Strip specific addon for the hotels, etc, and it can get really wonky. I honestly don't know how FSDT could "fix" it even with their upcoming Version 2 for KLAS. Short of building a complete Las Vegas scenery with an included KLAS using "sloped" elevation runways, it can't happen. Enlarging any flatten file to extend farther beyond the airport boundaries just moves the "cliffs" farther away from the airport, and you end up having the cliff half way to Nellis AFB or splitting the Strip in two. Believe me, I've lived here in Las Vegas for 13 years. I've tried EVERYTHING combination-wise to "fix" it. I've just learned to live with it, because the FSDT KLAS looks so good to begin with. Sometimes we just have to give in to the "virtual reality" limitations inherent to our hobby. My favorite saying during 3 decades of flight simming is always, "Don't sweat the small stuff." Especially if you really can't do anything about it. +1, Falcon. My views exactly. The small cliffs aren't a big deal really. Same thing happens over at Denver KDEN. No big deal. Stew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Hobson Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 8 hours ago, GordonGekko said: The FSDT KLAS actually has its own custom mesh file, so it wasn't designed for default FSX mesh. So how come the cliffs? Cuz the airport is slanted, as Falcon pointed out. Stew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stillwater Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Fully agree to the title of this post. Look forward to the release! (I only hope I get my sim back running until then... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconAF Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 14 hours ago, GordonGekko said: The FSDT KLAS actually has its own custom mesh file, so it wasn't designed for default FSX mesh. You misunderstood what I meant. If it has it's own custom mesh file, THAT mesh file was created for use with the default FSX terrain mesh, and the exclusion file included with KLAS (the "flatten" file needed because the airport HAD to be "flat" in FSX) will conflict with any OTHER addon terrain mesh someone may have. That includes any terrain mesh recommended by ORBX for use with FTX. So NA SCA alone isn't going to "fix" any elevation problems for the FSDT KLAS if the user is using anything other than the default FSX terrain mesh. The airport would have to be designed using the "sloping runways" techniques available, but that involves some serious, time consuming effort by the developer. One example of how it CAN work is the FTX PAKT Ketchikan payware airport that uses the sloped taxiways to/from the runway. It's a masterpiece in airport design, but was probably a headache (at times) for the designer to create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triplane Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 4 hours ago, Stillwater said: Fully agree to the title of this post. Look forward to the release! (I only hope I get my sim back running until then... ) Me too.....Having been born in SoCal and living in California for many years Las Vegas is almost a second home. I was there first in 1954 and have seen the many changes over the years. I think it was "better" in the old days but that's also true about a lot of stuff these days. I can't wait for the SoCal release and really appreciate the addition of KLAS. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Sandmann Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Hi guys, as a follow-up to the above I've since checked a bunch of third-party airport add-ons with SCA -- FSDT KLAS, BP KLAX, LatinVFR KSAN and KSNA, and 29Palms KTNP -- and those all can be made to work with SCA without major hiccups. For some of them a couple of SCA and/or add-on files will need to be deactivated, and for FSDT KLAS I had to made a separate patch file that removes the ugly platform with the help of extensive sloped flattens, but it's all pretty straightforward. With the release of SCA I'll post specific instructions and options in the compatibility forum. Below a couple of quick snaps of how KSNA and KLAS fit in, respectively. Cheers, Holger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryisenor Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 On 2015-11-17 at 1:48 PM, FalconAF said: You misunderstood what I meant. If it has it's own custom mesh file, THAT mesh file was created for use with the default FSX terrain mesh, and the exclusion file included with KLAS (the "flatten" file needed because the airport HAD to be "flat" in FSX) will conflict with any OTHER addon terrain mesh someone may have. That includes any terrain mesh recommended by ORBX for use with FTX. So NA SCA alone isn't going to "fix" any elevation problems for the FSDT KLAS if the user is using anything other than the default FSX terrain mesh. The airport would have to be designed using the "sloping runways" techniques available, but that involves some serious, time consuming effort by the developer. One example of how it CAN work is the FTX PAKT Ketchikan payware airport that uses the sloped taxiways to/from the runway. It's a masterpiece in airport design, but was probably a headache (at times) for the designer to create. One of the problems with larger airports that you don't get with Ketchikan is that ground traffic taxiing to gates is not possible with sloped airports. This is not such a problem with something the size of Ketchikan but would not work with Las Vegas with it's high volume of airline traffic. Looking at the photos by Holger using slopes around the airport seems to fix the problem and still allows a flat airport. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregmorin Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Thank You Holger! Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Kane Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Thank you Holger, looking forward to this very much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconAF Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Outstanding, Holger! One of my "concerns" was how the FSDT KLAS would work with SCA. It's incredible that you, as a software developer (and the ORBX team overall), would address that issue even BEFORE the SCA product is released, so ready-made fixes would be available to the customer base as soon as SCA is released. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart Hobson Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 9 hours ago, FalconAF said: Outstanding, Holger! One of my "concerns" was how the FSDT KLAS would work with SCA. It's incredible that you, as a software developer (and the ORBX team overall), would address that issue even BEFORE the SCA product is released, so ready-made fixes would be available to the customer base as soon as SCA is released. Thank you! I agree--KLAS was one my concerns too, along with Orange County-John Wayne airport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterg74 Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 On 12/15/2015 at 6:03 PM, Holger Sandmann said: i guys, as a follow-up to the above I've since checked a bunch of third-party airport add-ons with SCA -- FSDT KLAS, BP KLAX, LatinVFR KSAN and KSNA, and 29Palms KTNP -- and those all can be made to work with SCA without major hiccups. For some of them a couple of SCA and/or add-on files will need to be deactivated, and for FSDT KLAS I had to made a separate patch file that removes the ugly platform with the help of extensive sloped flattens, but it's all pretty straightforward. With the release of SCA I'll post specific instructions and options in the compatibility forum. Below a couple of quick snaps of how KSNA and KLAS fit in, respectively. Cheers, Holger Would FSDT KLAX not mentioned above, also have no issues? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonW Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 On December 15, 2015 at 4:03 PM, Holger Sandmann said: and for FSDT KLAS I had to made a separate patch file that removes the ugly platform with the help of extensive sloped flattens, but it's all pretty straightforward. Hey Holger, thanks for all of the work you put into this. Just curious are you using Pilots mesh in this shot with KLAS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Sandmann Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 Hi Jason, As with all North American FTX regions SCA comes with its own terrain mesh files compiled at 10m meaning there's a stable, common base for all components that rely on specific elevations. Any installed third-party mesh packages will be overriden by SCA unless they are compiled at higher resolution (as far as I know neither of the PILOTS variants is, at least not in this area). Cheers, Holger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterg74 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 9 hours ago, Holger Sandmann said: Hi Jason, As with all North American FTX regions SCA comes with its own terrain mesh files compiled at 10m meaning there's a stable, common base for all components that rely on specific elevations. Any installed third-party mesh packages will be overriden by SCA unless they are compiled at higher resolution (as far as I know neither of the PILOTS variants is, at least not in this area). Cheers, Holger Isn't the Ultimate product supposed to have LOD14 & LOD14 in the US? Also, sorry to bug, but re: my question on FSDT KLAX, is it also ok? Thanks!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Sandmann Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Hi walterg74, I doubt that PILOTS' Ultimate has LOD14 or even LOD13 coverage throughout since, for southern California alone, a LOD14 mesh would clock in at ~10GB. Wouldn't make much sense anyway as the full resolution (i.e., 2.4m grid spacing) would only be displayed in a very narrow ring around the user aircraft, these very-high resolution mesh files are only meaningful at airports or other local points of interest. I can't speak to FSDT KLAX compatibility at this time as I only have the Blueprint version, which works fine with SCA. I'll download the FSDT demo at some point; hopefully the time-limited functionality will allow me to get a close enough look. In the meantime I'm sure that user users will provide feedback here. Cheers, Holger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterg74 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 12 minutes ago, Holger Sandmann said: Hi walterg74, I doubt that PILOTS' Ultimate has LOD14 or even LOD13 coverage throughout since, for southern California alone, a LOD14 mesh would clock in at ~10GB. Wouldn't make much sense anyway as the full resolution (i.e., 2.4m grid spacing) would only be displayed in a very narrow ring around the user aircraft, these very-high resolution mesh files are only meaningful at airports or other local points of interest. I can't speak to FSDT KLAX compatibility at this time as I only have the Blueprint version, which works fine with SCA. I'll download the FSDT demo at some point; hopefully the time-limited functionality will allow me to get a close enough look. In the meantime I'm sure that user users will provide feedback here. Cheers, Holger Hi, thanks for the feedback! I don't know 100%, I'm just going by what they state for their product, and it does say for specific areas, since like you say for some areas it does not make sense to have so much detail. Considering this last tidbit it doesn't sound too crazy if they did have it for the region, as if they do ha e variable resolutions, and considering the whole package for americas weighs in at about 50 GBs I think, doesn't sound too far fetched... Anyway thanks for the info and hope either you or users chime in about KLAX, since I just bought it during the BF sale. Regards Walter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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