Mac_Maddog88 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Seriously? Why is this? I mean, I'm at the point where FSDreamteam CYVR runs 10-20 FPS better than default KSEA. DEFAULT KSEA. Let's take a look here. Both Vancouver and Seattle have a ton of landmarks. They both have a ton of roads and vector data and nearby urban areas. So why does Seattle run so poor? on my setup, Vancouver is more complex than KSEA but it runs a million times better than KSEA. You'd think it'd be the other way around - But nope. I can only imagine how poor the KSEA area performs with the Taxi2Gate KSEA scenery... Anybody have any explanations for this? I mean, even a city like San Francisco, with the new Flightbeam KSFO HD, which is by far one of THE MOST complex airports ever made, runs butter smooth around 30 FPS in the NGX... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Newman Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 One thing at play here is the 3D models used to populate the areas. Seattle has a large photoreal area in Downtown and the docks, and in those dockside locations, there are a healthy smattering of some rather detailed cranes. Unfortunately, these cranes are rather poorly optimized. The entire photoreal area is provided in the default scenery and as all photoreal areas are displayed, no matter what other scenery you have installed, that default photoreal is displayed all the time, with or without PNW. I believe the cranes are ported models from FS9, so not truly native to FSX and therefore quite performance draining. It's also not a simple matter of slapping an exclude down to remove them either... The only way to get rid of them is to reduce the scenery complexity slider. As far as the T2G KSEA however, that's actually not as bad of a hit as you might think... In my own personal testing, it was only 1 or 2 FPS lower than standard PNW. If you're already at the low end, then that becomes more noticeable, but for me it was from 29 to 28fps... not really an issue. Others have even reported an improvement over PNW KSEA, though I didn't experience that myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterSuranyi86 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 I guess the problem MIGHT be that at Seattle you have two big airports (Tacoma, plus the other one where the Boeings are built), plus the huge city. Same thing at Paris, you have two large airports (CDG and Orly), right on top of each other, and that can mess with the performance. At least that is my guess. Try to turn off Ai traffic, and if you see a MASSIVE improvement, than that is the reason. (sorry Rob, we posted just at the exact same moment, so I wasn't aware of your post, but as ORBX staff, you have more insight into how this goes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripcord Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Rob I have heard others make this same explanation about the Seattle area. I didn't realize until now however, that the cranes and photoreal and other offending items cannot be removed from the default scenery. Has nobody ever tracked down the bgl files in the scenery base scenery folders and figured out which ones to disable or remove? I suppose it would have been done by now if it were possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanM Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Great question. Is there anything we can help with troubleshooting / editing to make the job easier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripcord Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 BTW I have more problems in SF and Vancouver than I do in Seattle. Probably just heavier addons on those places. T2G KSEA is really pretty well optimized -- the problems there are closer to downtown, as Rob explains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripcord Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Great question. Is there anything we can help with troubleshooting / editing to make the job easier? Errr, well, see here is the thing -- no official sanctioned troubleshooting is probably going to involve what I am alluding to here. It is almost certainly a violation of the EULA to monkey with the default FSX/P3D files, so if somebody did know which file to 'turn off' they probably would be careful about sharing that info. Certainly no dev would advocate doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Sandmann Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Hi guys, Rob's explanation isn't quite correct. All default elements in the Seattle downtown area are excluded by PNW and then re-positioned on the photoreal area provided with PNW. We needed to do this because there's no photoreal Seattle in default FSX/P3D and thus many of the downtown buildings buildings weren't correctly located. However, given that Seattle is part of the larger PNW region and not a dedicated Cityscape add-on we relied on the default objects meaning the fps impact between default downtown and our version remains pretty much the same. What we did change, however, is to leave out about half of the default harbor objects, especially some of the poorly optimized cranes and vessels. Also, we placed the remaining cranes so that they only display when Scenery Complexity is at maximum ("Extremely dense") and thus they will disappear if you set your slider one notch to the left. Seattle simply suffers from the fact that ACES was based in town and the developers felt the need to place an extra dose of custom objects in their hometown area. Combine those (inefficient) objects with the dense urban autogen and it's no wonder the area is an fps black hole. BTW, experimenting with the autogen and scenery complexity sliders, along with road and AI traffic density, helps one to tease out the relative impact of each on the area and thus come up with a suitable setting combination specific to one's PC. Cheers, Holger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertPilot Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Errr, well, see here is the thing -- no official sanctioned troubleshooting is probably going to involve what I am alluding to here. It is almost certainly a violation of the EULA to monkey with the default FSX/P3D files, so if somebody did know which file to 'turn off' they probably would be careful about sharing that info. Certainly no dev would advocate doing that. But, doesn't FTX Global replace default FSX/P3D texture files anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripcord Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 I would have said it differently: Seattle clearly was featured in all it's glory due to the fact that ACES was based in town and the developers rightly felt the need to recreate the spectacular beauty of the place -- and in their effort to convey an extra dose of custom objects in their hometown area, they failed to build well optimized models that could stand the test of time. Yes I am a homer from Seattle... Sorry. Combine those (inefficient) objects with the dense urban autogen and it's no wonder the area is an fps black hole. But, doesn't FTX Global replace default FSX/P3D texture files anyway? It does but they are scenery library entries added ABOVE the default files. They probably used as many exclusions as they could to 'remove' the poorly optimized objects, but they could not simply over-write the FSX files. Holger will correct me if I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olderndirt Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 For the conspiracy enthusiasts - MS is located in the greater Seattle metro area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripcord Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Is that what they are calling the Eastside these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Newman Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Hi guys, Rob's explanation isn't quite correct. All default elements in the Seattle downtown area are excluded by PNW and then re-positioned on the photoreal area provided with PNW. We needed to do this because there's no photoreal Seattle in default FSX/P3D and thus many of the downtown buildings buildings weren't correctly located. However, given that Seattle is part of the larger PNW region and not a dedicated Cityscape add-on we relied on the default objects meaning the fps impact between default downtown and our version remains pretty much the same. What we did change, however, is to leave out about half of the default harbor objects, especially some of the poorly optimized cranes and vessels. Also, we placed the remaining cranes so that they only display when Scenery Complexity is at maximum ("Extremely dense") and thus they will disappear if you set your slider one notch to the left. Seattle simply suffers from the fact that ACES was based in town and the developers felt the need to place an extra dose of custom objects in their hometown area. Combine those (inefficient) objects with the dense urban autogen and it's no wonder the area is an fps black hole. BTW, experimenting with the autogen and scenery complexity sliders, along with road and AI traffic density, helps one to tease out the relative impact of each on the area and thus come up with a suitable setting combination specific to one's PC. Cheers, Holger I learned something today... that qualifies me to eat that ice cream sandwich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonGekko Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 If your not running PNW you can decompile the Seattle bgl remove any default objects from the xml file and then recompile it using freeware tools. Its been years since I did it, so the steps are a little foggy, but that was the jist of it if I remember correctly. Or turn the scenery complexity slider down if you not inclined to do the above. Some areas like Newark airport have the cranes tied to the default AFCAD. So you can basically open the default AFCAD with ADEX, remove the cranes, recompile it and stick the new AFCAD in the Addon Scenery/Scenery folder. Cranes gone and performance back up. Some other seaside airports have the cranes in the AFCAD and some in the cities specific bgl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabs79 Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 So if someone would do a Seattle cityscape and replace the default buildings with new performance friendly ones we could get a great looking Seattle region with good performance? wow, I'd definitely pay for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmb Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Seattle PNW contains one of the very few areas where I never ever managed to get completely rid of blurries in every simulator (FSX, P3D1, P3D2, P3D3) I used with PNW so far. Take off from KSEA to the North, fly over the downtown/harbor area, at the Space needle turn to the right and then enter Fremont Cut. This is my blurry test. I can get a more or less blurry-free harbor / downtown area, but Fremont Cut has been blurry forever. It's even more strange as this isn't an exceptionally dense area compared to others. There must be something evil hidden in this small area. Of course you can stop the simulaton and wait a couple of seconds for the blurries to clear. Kind regards, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medtner Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Maybe Seattle is the FS equivalent of Derry, and thus IT is living somewhere in those scenery layers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamN Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 You seem to forget that Toronto is the 5th largest city in North-America (more models to draw), while Vancouver is ranked 23, plus Toronto has 5 airports in FSX and Vancouver only 1. On top of that, raising ground or air traffic sliders too high will make the situation even worse for Toronto than Vancouver. As for Seattle: I think it's just poorly designed in FSX, you can turn all traffic sliders to 0 and it still runs pretty bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neucoas Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I allways avoid the area with PNW. But yesterday i take off from KPAE and flown south with the stock baron. It was an almost smooth flight - 24-30fps. Until i get near KSEA everything was ok. I decided to do a low pass and the frames dropped to the 10's. But as fast i reach 1000 ft again the frames launched again. Its not that bad with light airplanes. My autogen density was on 'Dense' and i have an average PC EDIT: i forget to say that when i flew over the photoreal area of Seattle i got drop on fps and stutters. Strange! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z06z33 Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Orbx how about doing a city scape to replace those inefficient buildings, look at Flytampa's Dubai the whole city modeled tons in 3d ie tons of buildings, detailed airport and one of the best performing addons in sim for that level of detail or Miami city X. I'd be more than happy to buy a product regardless of the cost if I'd help the performance and vas usage in that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stillwater Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 If I may add... Los Angeles approach is a nightmare also. I was sure that the ACES team dropped in enough details to make this area so "beautiful" - intending to make a screenshot, not for flying. I do hope we get rid of numerous frame-eaters with OLC_NA south... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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