AndreaD Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 For some reason, the tendency to personalize things and turn everything into a reason for fighting is invading our hobby. It's x-planers vs fsxers (now P3D2ers) with some ramifications: satisfied P3D2 early adopters vs unsatisfied ones is a notable example ... PMDGers vs non PMDGers ORBXers vs ORBX haters Vector lovers vs Vector haters .......... There has even been an argument because some people didn't want Orbx to release a beta version of a P3D2 port and let some willing users the honor of trying the scenery for themselves. Opinions are opinions and all are respectable, but someone felt necessary to publicly address "the others" like a bunch of immature kids, just because they didn't share his sentiment on the matter. We also witnessed a harsh criticism against a firm (ORBX) that has always shown an open eye towards its customers, offering free stuff and free upgrades for years. This firm has been accused of hiding things form customers, even after the structure of mesh/vector/landclass and whatnot had been clearly demonstrated on this site. I, for one, did not embark on the mesh/vector adventure because there is a geometrical problem, a flaw in FSX: flat runways means there are some insoluble problems with mesh. Neither ORBX nor PILOTS are responsible for this, and yet they have been virtually tarred and feathered for weeks here, on Avsim and elsewhere. I am curious: did the aliens invade our precious hobby? Is someone taking things a bit too seriously? Maybe we need to calm down and get back to the times when a white vertical box on a green patch was the Empire States Building, the whole thing was a 6 fps slide show and we (and the colored carton box) called it a flight simulator. But I seem to remember that I believed it, and that I was quite happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirit_66 Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Amen! Spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Half the problem is that you are reading someone's opinions and ideas expressed in text on a screen. If you were face to face with that person, could hear the inflections in the voice, and see the hand gestures and facial expressions, you would probably gain a completely different impression of what they were trying to say. Unless someone is clearly and unequivocally rude, I tend to grant people a lot of latitude in how they express themselves on a computer screen. Its too easy to misinterpret otherwise, and that only escalates the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry_R Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Thanks so much for posting this AndreaD; I think it's particularly timely. I had to some extent begun to feel I'm the odd man out on this subject. I would also like to mention that the emotive content of posts, regardless of the particular subject matter can have ,or could have, a distinct chilling effect on those who might wish to begin to contribute in one way or another. I certainly does on me. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjvn Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 You have to live with it: it's human: you see it everywhere, no matter what hobby it is! Regards, Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmerhead2 Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 If you want a friend, get a dog! Sadly, wherever humans meet there will be tension. Wish it wasn't so, but as Ghandi used to say: Be the change you want to see in the world. Problem is, we're all cognitively biased by nature, so we might think we're doing the world a favour by our actions, but that is usually not the truth, of which we are blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quadraspleen Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 You are so right, Andrea..And yes, very timely. I have commented on at least two of these posts over at AVSIM in the last week. I think it has a lot to do with the sense of entitlement that people seem to have picked up in the last few years..Not just "kids" as they've always had a sense of entitlement - "the world is mine" sort of thing, but people lately seem to think that, not only can they hold contrary views, which of course they can; its a free world, after all; we are not the thought police! but there seems to be a trend toward not being able to accept that other people are able to hold contrary views, and not be in conflict with them about it. "I am right and I will argue with you as it is my right to do so" kind of thing. I see it in the street in England a lot. People are often just rude and arrogant and think everyone should take their side, when in reality, there are no sides in our hobby, just different opinions. I agree with you to an extent, Paul but it isn'rt hard to convey a courteous attitude in an email; I do it all the time with my customers as all of the ORBX and PMDG staff do in their dealings with the masses. But, the customer is NOT always right and sometimes all they needed to do was ask a question instead of making a statement of fact that then escalates into a flame war or ultimately sometimes a ban for just being inflammatory. It is very hard, and as someone who gets told off by his gen. manager all the time for being "frank" with customers (it's my company too) I totally understand why devs may sound a little hacked off at times when dealing with this kind of customer. It's all this talk of Human Rights. People think it means they're right all the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkH Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 zzzzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaD Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 zzzzz Not an interesting conversation? Keyboard failure? What happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominique Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I've been frequenting FS forums since 1997. It has always been like that. Nothing new. You forgot INTELers vs AMDers, NVIDIAers vs ATIers, PCers vs MACers, FSers vs Fly!ers. You name it, you have it. The human nature loves pissing contest. And anonymity gives the wrong kind of courage to some. But the two posters who brought together JV to close the thread you're referring to, you and poster #2, agree this is bad behaviour . So this is good omen for the future. I hope . On another note, if I agree with you when you say But I seem to remember that I believed it, and that I was quite happy (and I flew FS1 in B&W...) I may add that OrbX is giving us what I was dreaming of then. I'm happier now than I was then ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Just a hobby, not an addiction. Posting too much for bad reasons and stupid purpose is like drinking a fake whiskey in a lost saloon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teecee Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I have no idea what you people are reading as this is the only forum I follow in general.. If you are referring to angst here, where is it? we see an occasional spat, but that is to be expected.. Or am I reading the whole context of this post incorrectly? Teecee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrownCityMisfit Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 As a rule, don't take anything I read on the internet seriously. And I hope no one takes what I say seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoLonger Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 There are a lot of things I could say about this but I learned (or I am learning) that the best thing to do is say 'nothing'... so that's what I am going to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spirit Flyer Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Gee, (glancing behind) did I bring this virus with me from "over there"? After spending years staring at my belly button so hard that I can do a thirteen page print-out of it's depths and contours, I have come to the conclusion that it has very little to do with frame rates. People are people are people, who divide over right vs left, moderates vs extremes, young vs old, present vs future, this and that, and anything else that can be split into two or more variables. The list can go on for pages and pages, taking years and years to compare and evaluate together or separately as it applies to this and that... Enough! The thing is, make your point without emotion, prejudice or undue emphasis. In other words, don't have a real point. On the other hand, if there is no point, why make one? Anyway, to the point: Like the OP is hinting at (I think, but please don't jump in my mouth and tear out my tongue if not) is that we all need to hold hands and sing Kumbyah (or Kumbyjah. or Cumbya, or Come by Ya'll or whatever) and just thank God... (woops! Before someone objects to the generic term "God" however you and yours conceive, think, believe, or consider, not saying you should, or should not...insert higher power, He, She, it, It, the cosmos, fate, lucky stars or whatever, or rather whoever, or on second thought...) that we are not nasty old ladies (yikes, there I go again, make that old men, or young women, or women of no particular age or race, or men and women who like making doilies (what kind of a man likes knitting doilies?!?) whoops, I should have said what kind of boy/girl/man/woman/group/religion/viewpoint, race, culture...) in a knitting circle with sharp knitting needles... OK, I need to take a break now. What was this thread about? Why am I writing this post? What does it all mean? What does "Why" mean? They are calling me, so I have to go now... Rind Kegards, Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoLonger Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 And so I repeat... the best thing to do is say 'nothing... (Though I have to say your post is a lot more fun, Stephen! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfko Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Very well said, Andrea! And reading some of the responses in this thread, I'm afraid the aliens are really already amongst us. Ciao, Wolfgang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominique Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Just a hobby, not an addiction. Posting too much for bad reasons and stupid purpose is like drinking a fake whiskey in a lost saloon Addiction, well, jeez, I dunno., better to drink alcohol you're right... or smoke marijuana anyway (That one I couldn't help to do, sorry ...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaD Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 I've been frequenting FS forums since 1997. It has always been like that. Nothing new. You forgot INTELers vs AMDers, NVIDIAers vs ATIers, PCers vs MACers, FSers vs Fly!ers. You name it, you have it. The human nature loves pissing contest. And anonymity gives the wrong kind of courage to some. But the two posters who brought together JV to close the thread you're referring to, you and poster #2, agree this is bad behaviour . So this is good omen for the future. I hope . On another note, if I agree with you when you say But I seem to remember that I believed it, and that I was quite happy (and I flew FS1 in B&W...) I may add that OrbX is giving us what I was dreaming of then. I'm happier now than I was then ! Oh yes! I remember sitting in front of a 386 PC in 1992 running FSsomething (I think it was 3) hearing a friend of mine who said his cousin worked with Silicon Graphics (remember?) and they had New York with cars and trains and the buildings and whatnot. And I started dreaming ...... and yes, first time I saw Orbx Australia the dream came back to my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dooga Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 http://xkcd.com/386/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominique Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Silicon Graphics (remember?) Yes I do . Visited their shop, t'was in Mountain View as I recall, in the early 90's. Time flies (and it is no simulator) ... http://xkcd.com/386/ cute and funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spirit Flyer Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I resemble that remark! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaboki Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I maybe shouldn't comment in this thread because I maybe one of the offenders(atleast when it comes to my view on PMDG and maybe in a few other cases) . I just got myself suspended from Avsim because I can't keep my mouth shut. After that suspension that mr Randazzo gave me I decided to get my account removed and never look back. It was just a small event that tipped the iceberg for me when it comes to Avsim and I won't dwelve more into it just my decision and mine alone:). One positive thing about leaving Avsim is that I get more time posting here for better or worse.(some may not appriciate that very much, but that's life, Im here wether you like it or not ) But as others said we are humans after all and everyone likes to have an opinion wether it's right or wrong, and discussing them(without getting personal) I think is just healthy and may bring up good facts that otherwise would have been missed. If everyone just had the same thoughts and all sang combya together while holding hands the world would be a very steril and boring place . Maybe there would be less wars in the world, but hey, even wars can bring progress and prosperity sometimes and can be justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M31 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 You will see all this adverse stuff on golf forums and even knitting forums too. Why Worry what others think, enjoy the hobby the way you want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaboki Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 and even knitting forums too. Really?, I can't image what the knitters would fight over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirit_66 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Really?, I can't image what the knitters would fight over Maybe about the size of the needles or the kind of wool? Spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaboki Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Hahaha, yes offcourse that would be it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Museumkeeper Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Then let us pray that come it may, (As come it will for a' that,) That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth, Shall bear the gree, an' a' that. For a' that, an' a' that, It's coming yet for a' that, That Man to Man, the world o'er, Shall brothers be for a' that. Robert Burns 25 January 1759-21 July 1796 Food for thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teecee Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Love Rabbie Burns, but for a' that I still have no clue why this thread was started and what it's a' aboot. Teecee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Fly Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Very well said, Andrea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaD Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Love Rabbie Burns, but for a' that I still have no clue why this thread was started and what it's a' aboot. Teecee. This thread was started because someone, like me, think that discussing and having different opinions is a healthy thing, but insulting those who do not share your point of view is wrong. And this is happening more and more frequently in the flightsim community: Jim writes something, Joe does not agree. At this point, Joe has two options: 1) keep silent (wrong imho but acceptable) 2) speak up his mind in a civilized way Instead many Joe's feel that they have to either 3a) insult Jim (more or less directly) 3b) say that Jim's argument is pointless 3c) hijack the whole thread to make it go south (think of the LM licensing problem that was magically conjured even in threads about the protection of baby kangaroos) One possible answer is that many people hate the idea that their first impression might have been wrong, and to make sure they do not find out, they prefer to impose their view and insult the oppositor. I think all civilized people agree that it has a name: fascism, and as an Italian I have heard about it, sadly. It's a historical and antropological view, not a political one of course. Bye all Andrea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Museumkeeper Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 +1 May I point out that my +1 relates to the below noted paragraph:- "This thread was started because someone, like me, think that discussing and having different opinions is a healthy thing, but insulting those who do not share your point of view is wrong." Kind regards Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spirit Flyer Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I don't want to insult, argue over wool, tell someone to go to H.E. Double Hockey Sticks, or anything else other than a place to hang my hat, wig or whatever. BTW, what's an Avsim? Kind regards, Stephen aka Spirit Flyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirit_66 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 ...... I think all civilized people agree that it has a name: fascism, and as an Italian I have heard about it, sadly. It's a historical and antropological view, not a political one of course.. Hi Andrea, don't go too far with your words!!! This is way too much and you should be more careful what you say. By the way, why don't you tell us the names of the members you're talking about? Spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripcord Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Andrea you are clearly NOT drinking enough. I would say that these forums here are without question the most polite, friendly and welcoming that I have ever come across. Any of the Falcon4 fans here remember FRUGALS? Holy Cow!? Going from that forum to this one is like leaving a punk rock concert and going to a church picnic. But one thing remains the same, and you have found it -- folks do like to enter in a good debate. Not all of us are capable to accept different views when we just KNOW we are right, darn it! I think I spend most my time over here because it is a calm civilized well-mannered group. I feel like I could amble into a bar and sit down and order a pint and visit with almost any of the other regulars in here. EDIT: Just realized that this might read like I am arguing your post or debating -- I am not! I could not agree more that this IS a hobby for us. Illegitimi non carborundum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaD Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 It's not a matter of who and when, but of how. If there has been some incident in the recent past it has been forgotten by me: I do not enjoy being right against anyone. I'd rather have an open discussion and reach a reasonable point of view than impose my belief. And I maintain that a better world is possible where nobody feels like they can dictate and impose, and that a hobby forum is the right place to start, because there is nothing life-threatening here, no big loss, nothing about love, war, religion, nothing to kill or die for, as John would have it. This should be a relaxed place, so this is where we can start being open to each other, talking about a common, noble passion; that's all. Except of course when you feel like tossing the damn PC out of a fifth floor window like I got quite close to do yesterday, but that's another story ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaboki Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Except of course when you feel like tossing the damn PC out of a fifth floor window like I got quite close to do yesterday, but that's another story ..... LOL, what's the story? . Do you mind sharing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Interesting. Due to recent experiences elsewhere, I was on the verge of posting a thread about how civilised this place is compared to the testosterone-fueled combat flight sim forums I frequent. It's driven a lot of people away, I'm sure. Now here's he bottom line as far as I'm concerned - I like old aeroplanes. I like petending to fly them (sometimes I like to pretend to shoot other old aeroplanes down - you can analyse it until the cows come home, the Freudians and the Jungists would both have valid points to make, I'm sure. I would maintain that I just like old aeroplanes - some people like amature drama clubs and brewing their own beer, it's just a hobby). I've spent a fortune on add-ons, peripherals, books and toys to make the way I do my hobby as enjoyable as possible. It's nice to have a place to go where I can share this interest with like-minded people from all over the World - and trust me on this point - this place is the nicest one I've found. Long may it continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaD Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 Yes it is still a nice place. Except for some rough spots in the last two months ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaD Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 LOL, what's the story? . Do you mind sharing? P3D2 perfectly working after some fiddling, everything smooth and nice for one full month: no OOM's, no CTD's, nothing at all. Then, four days ago, hell breaks loose: I start getting that awful "pure function virtual call" error or whatever it is: ctd's in sequence, bad frame rates in some places (like Athens: is it possible that I have 55fps at Half Moon Bay, 48 fps in San Francisco Bay and 9/16 fps sitting on the lousy, dusty, stupid default runway in Athens? Obviously not: it wasn't like a week ago, then I don't know what happened, the whole thing has turned a pumpkin. That's all. Last night, after the eleventh ctd in a row, I stared at the PC, looked at the window, and for a long instant I cherished the fantasy of seeing the whole metallic box fly down to the street, with cables, joystick, monitor, everything. So I say: that's our enemy, that's our conquest, let's be nice to each other and fight together! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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