Tutmeister uk Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Wasn't sure where to post this as technically it isn't a fault with Vector but it is sort of related to it as the vector install is swamping other sceneries. I wanted to raise an issue with you regarding using vector and ftx regions with Black Marble. The issue seems to be that when you add this night time scenery it doesn't appear due to some excludes from vector and possible from regions. In theory turning off the roads in vector should allow Black Marble vector roads to appear but they still don't show. It seems that these excludes are overriding everything as the Black Marble vector data is changing the sim native data and therefore will naturally sit below any orbx products. If you disable the FTX_VECTOR_EXX then you can get it to work. Now I'm far from an expert so I'm just giving you a polite poke to see if there are any suggestions. I believe the dev Chris Bell has reached out to you to try and find a solution so all the sceneries can work together and is waiting on a response. Just thought I'd try and give it some more visibility. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Cooper Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Hello, May I direct you straight back to the Black Marble developer, he recognises the problem and you will find your solution there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F737MAX Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 29 minutes ago, Nick Cooper said: Hello, May I direct you straight back to the Black Marble developer, he recognises the problem and you will find you solution there. Sorry Nick, I respectfully disagree. ORBX products seem to be an all or nothing approach on how they are installed in P3D. You cannot easily disable the textures like you can with photoscenery, for instance, by modifying the scenery.cfg file when you wish to fly at night. This limits what other content producers can do when users already have ORBX installed, creating incompatibilities, so I'm holding off purchasing FTX Vector for this reason. Chris Bell has stated on his forum, "its just not cool to overwrite another respectable developers work" when he was asked to provide a fix on his own. As users of both products, we're asking for a solution to be found. We're all hoping that ORBX and Chris Bell can come to an understanding on how this can be fixed so that the customers can enjoy both companies excellent material. Regards, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregJ Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Actually @Nick Cooper There is a formal request made by Chris Bell direct to John Venema - regarding this issue. I for one, am hoping to see a sense of community mindedness in this regard - and fear that it will not be the case. A crying shame as a proud ORBX product consumer - I see a great deal of isolationism occurring - here. I have had my topics pulled on this forum - and fear that my input as a community member is not valued. I offer nothing out of vindictiveness, and only out of a sense of team building, and camaraderie for a hobby I enjoy - please refrain from deleting this post. I get that you want to protect ORBX - but, Sir, with the respect deserved to you, and the team as a whole - your hard work is no less than the hard work of another who is trying to make their bones. ORBX is not the only developer in town - you cooperate with many others, and of course with Lockheed Martin - so why not also be a gentleman and work with someone who is attempting to bring a different, and overlooked perspective to the world of simming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutmeister uk Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 Hi Nick, I'll echo the above feelings. Also the solution at the moment is to disable parts of orbx products because they overrule other scenery, which breaks the way the scenery shows. Hardly a solution as I'd like to be able to use my orbx products along with the new road, traffic, bridges and lighting provided by Black Marble. If there is a way that orbx can respond and work with another dev to allow their products to switch off only the correct excludes or provide another way of doing things then surely that is going to move the flight sim community forward. I love my orbx products but I do get frustrated sometimes at the brute force way they install into v4 against the recommended method. Hopefully a solution can be found between devs as I can't give up my orbx but I'd love to use these new products to enhance it - you even wrenched more money out of me today due to the sale! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Cooper Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Quote There is a formal request made by Chris Bell direct to John Venema - regarding this issue. Hello Greg and others. You clearly are better informed than I am in this matter. I defer to your advice and will await whatever outcome that there may be. I had read a little about Black Marble but clearly not enough to fully understand the situation, as you see from my answer above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregJ Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 8 minutes ago, Nick Cooper said: Hello Greg and others. You clearly are better informed than I am in this matter. I defer to your advice and will await whatever outcome that there may be. I had read a little about Black Marble but clearly not enough to fully understand the situation, as you see from my answer above. Thank you sir! Patience is a virtue and for those of us who are trying to gain enjoyment out of more than one product - it would seem there is a need for a lot of it. I hope that this will be resolved and I can fly day and night and enjoy all that ORBX has and will continue to offer in the future, inasmuch as Chris's product could offer as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jac_49 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 I fully agree with Chris, and Greg J. have the same problem when trying to use BM Base & Vector and FTX ORBX Vector together in P3D v4. I bought a lot of FTX ORBX stuff and realy like it very much. it would-be be nice if it can work together with Black Marble Base & Vector , i hope you can find a way to cooperate! Jac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris b Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 I agree, hope this can be resolved through mutual cooperation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTK1972 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Same for me. I use a lot of Orbx scenery and i am very happy with it. in terms of night lightning i think black marble is a milestone and for our community it would be a great benefit. so i really appreciate help from you Orbx guys to make black marble fly together with Orbx. Thanks for making it happen, Carsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flic1 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 I'll also add my request to help make Black Marble compatible with ORBX.. I use FTX Global, Vector and OpenLC (NA & EUR) along with several airports and would love to see cooperation between the developers to find solution and a fix! Thanks for any help and effort! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Cooper Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Hello, I have been over to the Avsim BM forum and seen the topic where you are all coming from. I doubt very much that adding the same message over and over again to this topic is likely to affect the outcome one way or the other. I see also that solutions have been declared and then have been declared wanting. It must be very frustrating for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david roch Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Please count me in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Cooper Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Thanks. It looks like photobucket is no longer working for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 I goes without saying that if a developer releases a product that exactly replicates what Orbx FTX Vector does with autogen based lights attached to vector roads then there are going to be conflicts, no big surprise there. Demanding a "fix" is not so clear cut or easy, nor is it prudent for us to quickly begin hacking away at our product which has been on the market for nearly four years now. FTX Vector provides what we feel to be outstanding night lighting with a configuration tool and recently enhanced cityscapes and motorways for all FTX regions and all openLC region, covering most of the world. Vector provides global coverage of all aspects of vector-related enhancements and has been continually updated and improved over four years for free, with a major 1.60 version to be released soon. However in the interest of developer community cooperation I have requested a copy of the BM products from Chris Bell for us to examine and see if there can be a way for them to co-exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregJ Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Just now, John Venema said: I goes without saying that if a developer releases a product that exactly replicates what Orbx FTX Vector does with autogen based lights attached to vector roads then there are going to be conflicts, no big surprise there. Demanding a "fix" is not so clear cut or easy, nor is it prudent for us to quickly begin hacking away at our product which has been on the market for nearly four years now. FTX Vector provides what we feel to be outstanding night lighting with a configuration tool and recently enhanced cityscapes and motorways for all FTX regions and all openLC region, covering most of the world. Vector provides global coverage of all aspects of vector-related enhancements and has been continually updated and improved over four years for free, with a major 1.60 version to be released soon. However in the interest of developer community cooperation I have requested a copy of the BM products from Chris Bell for us to examine and see if there can be a way for them to co-exist. ....and that, in the spirit of cooperation is what we are asking for. I am sure he will reach out and share these with you. We love ORBX - and perhaps the concept of tweaking our night lighting environment is something we also like... you know us simmers - we poke, pick, tweak and on occasion complain - trying to get the best out of our products and systems - Thank You John! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTK1972 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Thank you John, really appreciate if Orbx is at least having a look and ONCE MORE helping our community. THANK YOU SIR ! Carsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutmeister uk Posted August 8, 2017 Author Share Posted August 8, 2017 Thank you John, As stated, we love orbx but there are some nice features in the black marble vector, traffic and 3d bridge packs that we would like to use as well. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris b Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Thank you for your consideration Orbx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabloomf1230 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 I have to side with ORBX on this issue. For example, there is a freeware add-on, the Terra Emergence Project (TEP), that replaces the default LC textures for mountainous and other undeveloped regions of the globe. It will overwrite either some of the default sim textures or some of the the ORBX FTX Global Base textures (depending on what's installed), although it does make a backup beforehand. Now to my point. When ORBX releases an update to FTX Global Base, the installer can't be expected to hunt about and figure out what another 3rd party product has done to the textures, it just overwrites what it is designed to replace. And the same should be expected for FTX Global Vector. and its roadway components. Once Vector is updated, then the user can reinstall Black Marble Vector. No big deal. I've done it a few times already with the TEP. If some accommodation is reached, that would be great. But if not, the burden on the user isn't that terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregJ Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 3 hours ago, John Venema said: Vector provides global coverage of all aspects of vector-related enhancements and has been continually updated and improved over four years for free, with a major 1.60 version to be released soon. This is where the potential for excellent collaboration might occur....always have appreciated this factor - and the fact that something is in development - with a poke around Black Marble to see where and how a "fix" something as simple as a "do you have a Black Marble Product installed" checkbox that might prove a remedy? I am not a dev/programmer but I certainly want a resolve that satisfies both parties and the customers too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruachan Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 With respect, Jay, I feel you may be missing the point. If we wish to experience all that Black Marble has to offer, and I think it is quite evident that we do, then we need a way of disabling those features in FTX Global Vector which have been improved significantly by Black Marble. I take your point regarding TEP and, as you say, it is quite straightforward to recover the preferred status quo following an ORBX Global update. However, the Vector/OLC/Lights conflict issue is more complex. Until we are provided with a straightforward mechanism whereby we can enhance our sims without product conflicts while at the same time preserving ORBX Global Vector coastlines, stream, rivers, etc., then many of us will be faced with having to make the difficult choice as to which product should remain in place. None of us want to find ourselves in that position; we want the flexibility of choice that ensures the best of both worlds. Currently several Black Marble components have more to offer than the ORBX equivalents. It cannot be fair or right for one Developer to hinder the efforts of another to implement desirable changes within the Sim. After all, they are sharing access to the same platform. This situation has arisen simply because BM was not tested properly with ORBX FTX Vector in place. Assumptions were made which have since proved to be inaccurate so it's back to the drawing board to find answers. Now that we are aware of the issues it seems certain that a way can be found for both Vector products to coexist without the loss of everything provided by FTX Vector. I think this may prove to be a watershed moment for ORBX. Their reputation can only be enhanced further in the eyes of their loyal legions of users by this demonstration of a willingness to cooperate over issues such as this. After all, it's in everyones' interest to find an amicable resolution to this problem, isn't it? It won't affect sales either way as we need both products to provide the features we want in our simulators. My only wish is that this doesn't take too long to resolve itself. In common with most others I own all of the ORBX Global and Regional products as well as many Airports (sig. does not tell the whole story). My faith in the Black Marble project was such that I pre-purchased Base, Vector, Bridges and Traffic. As yet, none have been downloaded as I wait patiently for the dust to settle and receive clarity regarding the best way forward. Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Cooper Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Hello, Has your developer or have any of you considered how the conflict with the Orbx regions should be resolved? I see in your Avsim forum that efforts to remove Vector roads leave an underlay, with no road. This is open LC and the roads can indeed be removed altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTK1972 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Hey Nick, sorry for that but i do not understand what you mean Maybe it's my english..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Cooper Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Hello, I meant that on the Avsim BM forum, there are images of the road underlay where customers have tried to disable all the roads. Here are three images to illustrate that it is possible to exclude all roads in areas where there is no Orbx region but there is Vector and Open LC. There is quite a bit of misinformation in the Avsim BM forums on the subject of Vector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinHannon Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Hi Nick, A few posts have raised the issue regarding Regions but the BM developer doesn't seem to have taken this into consideration. Chris is evidently a developer with some talent, however planning and communication don't seem to be strong points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTK1972 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Ahh okay than i understood it the right way :-) Thanks for that ! I see that in terms of vector this might work out. but the full fat Orbx regions will not work with this apporach of deactivating roads in vector, right ? Best, Carsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Cooper Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Indeed not, there is no way to disable any of the regions' night lighting or roads. The Regions' control panel offers the choice of Open LC lighting on or off, the new Orbx lighting on or off, but there is no option for no lighting. These are the only settings available in regions. All of the regions include their own bespoke Vector and Landclass data and in order to apply it, must exclude all other influences first, just as Vector must and indeed does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTK1972 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 understood Nick. That is nearly what i supposed at least. Thank you Sir ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Clarke Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 23 minutes ago, Nick Cooper said: Indeed not, there is no way to disable any of the regions' night lighting or roads. The Regions control panel offers the choice of Open LC lighting on or off, my typo the new Orbx lighting on or off, but there is no option for no lighting. These are the only settings available in regions. All of the regions include their own bespoke Vector and Landclass data and in order to apply it, must exclude all other influences first, just as Vector must and indeed does. Hi Nick. Where in the Vector control panel are the lighting options? I can see the lighting options in Regions, but nothing in Vector nor OLCs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Cooper Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Sorry, if you read it again, it was a typo, for Vector, read regions, the whole post is about regions. I have corrected the original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Clarke Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 No problem. I thought it was some super insider info you had or it's in v160 of Vector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 OK I have offered Chris Bell complimentary Orbx products and we have formed an internal task force of all our Vector, LC and region development leaders to purchase BM and investigate further. Nick's solution above shows that all roads can easily be disabled globally using the Vector and openLC control panels. The bigger issue is the full-fat FTX Regions which are "not" designed to have any layers disabled, and that is by design - we use an exclude for the whole region layer as per the SDK, to ensure there are no disruptions from other terrain scenery packages. Our internal task force will investigate the possibility of some middle ground being reached but please understand that the regions have been designed like this for over a decade - BM is the new kid on the block which was developed without testing with Orbx FTX products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTK1972 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 John, really appreciate your support and time you and the Team is investing. Especially because you could also say no because of the point you mentioned. So thanks again for your help John no matter what outcome we will see ! Best, Carsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Clarke Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Thank you JV for your cooperation and understanding in this matter. It doesn't go unnoticed and is greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris b Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 thanks to all for your work and participation in trying to find a solution to this issue, hope an agreeable resolution could be found. Many thanks to the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregJ Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Agreed - Heartiest Thanks - If John Will send me the address of his favorite Pub....I'll buy some pints... Also agreed - that Chris ought to have checked his product against current developers on the market... it makes some sense and I hope that he will explain his reasoning for not doing so.... simply saying that a test platform consisted of a stock sim i.e. FSX/P3D is not valid in my opinion - if P3D is the model and the majority (or at least many popular) scenery is developed by a specific group....well then, hat in hand and strike a mutual deal....prior to this issue being a problem.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F737MAX Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 I concur with the other appreciative messages above, the easiest course of action would have been to dismiss this as another developer's problem. Thank you for considering your customers in undertaking investigative work and here's to hopefully finding a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris b Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 Just want to say thank you to Orbx and to all involved in collaborating/assisting Creative Design Studios with developing the patch for Black Marble. If nobody has said it yet,Thank You. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuisong Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 Hi Chris, welcome to the forums. Can I ask you what Black Marbie is? I think I am missing out on something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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