How to post... let's say constructive deception.

[Benny]

Hi guys, I had my tread close the other days (and yes, I agree to this one) because I was not happy with one of your product and to be honest, it's the first time ever.

 

Even if most of you are very happy with CZST (Steward Airport) I was not let says, impress by some part of it and especially the town.

 

The surrounding, runway and a few building are superb but this is not what I'm use to from ORBX. I get way more for my money in general.

 

So, that said, I have no problem issue with the software (so I can't ask for a fix) but I wish that it would be a bit revised. Can we the customer ask for that? I have screen shot of what I think need a bit of work but won't post them without your permission.

 

What I'm tying to be now is constructive....

 

A thread was just close on Global inquiry and I think it was close way to fast. If people for any reason are not happy they have the right to voice themselves. He probably didn't get what global was and other customer may end up like him.

 

Also, another suggestion, maybe a Global for noob thread should be in place because even me I don't get it right

 

So I hope I'm being polite and respectful enough.

 

Cheers, Ben

[Spacey]

The understanding of Global has been a real issue, not due to what Orbx did and produced, but maybe more because many of us lack the in depth knowledge and terminology to actually understand what was being said.

In saying that and to add to this idea above, can I suggest that when a new product is produced, a Youtube video be made to introduce the actual program, the history of its development ( just for the purchases interest), the purpose and reason for the product, what the product actually does, any limitations and why (eg fsx program issues restricting the program development), pre-requirements before loading, and requirements after loading, the area it covers, how it fits in with the region and other airports (if it is an airport), special features (flow stuff) included, and maybe why some features could not be included, loading process, settings and issues at each level (eg what may be missing at different level setting). and ideas or tricks discovered during the development that may help get the very best out of the product. Also possible issues that users may encounter and ideas to address them (items discovered in the beta testing that may potentially appear again - especially those not due to the fault of FTX), and then some of the visual areas the product features. The idea is that it is a introduction / educational / loading / users issues video that the developer can introduce and sell their product to the purchaser. And it will give visual enhancement and expansion to the manual, as you can only say so much in a manual before people stop reading. It may also reduce many of the forum issues, being more visual, and can be used as an advertising video as well.

I know FTX puts out very visual videos of the scenery to promote new products, but this has a completely different purpose for use by owners of the program.

At present on-one else to my knowledge does this in the Airport design area, but we do see it in some of the program's that run in FSX and they work extremely well when done properly to assist users in loading , using and getting the best out of the programs. As well, this video system is now being used in many other industries with excellent success as the customer has a far greater understanding of the product and can follow the standard processes and troubleshooting processes.

I know it would be a massive help to us newbies. But it's ust a thought I hope may be considered, even just for one product to see what customers think.

Thanks

Spacey

[Museumkeeper]

Hi all

My pennies worth for what it is worth.

On July 28th, Rob Newman posted a descriptive article on this forum describing what FTX Global is and more importantly, what it is not.

Based on this article I decided that at present I would be better sticking to FTX regions and airports with a view to progressing at some point to Global.

If I had not read this article I would probably have bought Global for the WRONG reason and been disappointed.

Kind regards

JFS

[Ian Routley]

Ben,

Thank you for your post. Certainly choosing not to use words like 'crap' etc on this occasion have gone a long way to improving the tone of your enquiry.

I am not sure what 'constructive deception' pertains to, but as regards two of your queries:

The FTX Global thread in question was closed for the reasons explained in the last post (drifted off topic, and original query comprehensively answered)

As pointed out above, and in that thread, a comprehensive guide to what FTXG is and 'is not' has been posted. Short of posting the same guide every couple of days I am not sure how much more fully things can be explained.

With regard to the CZST suggestions, you can no doubt suggest or request certain things. It is up to the developer as to whether they feel inclined to implement them. How they are phrased will undoubtedly have a bearing on this, not to mention how feasible they are.

[Spacey]

Hi JFS

There is no doubt a manual and written info is necessary and an excellent reference tool And it does help making decisions. I fully support this view. Especially as a retired University lecturer.

But to have a live video talking about the product in full detail by experts who can often explain it in more detail verbally than in written word, explaining terms to many Newbies using animations to assist, research has shown we can learn far more and in a shorter time, than can be written, and then to have a visual step by step with lots of extra info, many companies are moving towards this process due to it's effectiveness. Intact many courses that combine written text with video learning and animations have a significantly improved success rate than text alone. As a lecturer, I have seen dramatic change as lecture and animation is used over reading alone.

If later you do decide to buy it, you have a complete video on most things you need to know about FTXG rather than a manual. Maybe the video may have even changed your mind as it can visually offer much more information, or maybe it would further confirm your decision.

I recently brought PMDG 737. Despite many attempts to read the manual, I could not stay awake long enough to read it. Instead I have gone to Youtube and it has been brilliant. Still says similar information, but in simpler terms as watching actions whilst listening works better for many than reading text. It far easier to follow, more educational, and is more enjoyable to watch. And what can be said and physically demonstrated in the 20 - 40 minute video session are much more productive than the manual. For those who have read the manual, they will clearly understand what I an saying. Videos by ReNewReViews and Angle of Attack are for many much easier to learn than from the manuals. Many times in the tutorial flights, I will watch a small section on the iPad, then take that step, then move on. Visual teaching is taking off, not due to illiterate people, but because research studies are clearly showing improved learning and productivity.

Hi Ian, the FTXG confusion is that the written word is not as easy to follow as would animations with an expert in the area of FSX design explaining the process in simple terms, and video with animations is far easier to teach a subject. It also becomes a detailed reference point. There are just too many of us Newbies out there that do not understand FSX and computer terminology and it is for many a boring subject to read and learn. Current research clearly supports visual learning is a far superior method especially when combined with animation. To listen to a 30 minute video on FTXG by yourself and/or one of the developers, the history of it's development, how Orbx overcame issues, how it works within FSX how to get the best out of it, things to watch out for when installing, a visual walk through as it is installed on a computer, I am sure many others would find a highly educational and enjoyable.

In fact I am sure Ian if Orbx began a weekly or bi- weekly 20 minute Podcast (even for a small subscription cost) covering products, developers tips, some of the more interesting topics, topics which us Newbies are struggling with, terminology, systems/ parts and their performance with Orbx, etc, it would be highly successful. Recently, a magazine in the USA - Model Railroader introduced a video series covering many aspects of model railroading by the experts in the field. It has been extremely successful and a fantastic money spinner for a company struggling. To learn from the development team about FSX and FTX especially for the Newbies like myself, such a Podcast system would be one of the most valuable tools to offer Orbx customers.. Please may i ask that you and others in Orbx think about it as a new area of expansion. It does have great potential as a learning tool for those entering the Flight Simulator and the information Orbx could pass on in a visual way would be immense to it's customers. The subscription system would hopefully pay for the time given by Orbx

Thanks for your time

Spacey

[Ian Routley]

G'day Spacey,

I'm not sure if anyone has the time to make a weekly podcast, edited down to 20 minutes! We'll see if anyone puts their hand up.

Just how 'visual' things need to be is debatable. Perhaps it is a new thing that people don't have the patience / capacity to absorb printed information nowadays.

Rob's post has large, easy to understand diagrams, by the way.

From a personal professional perspective diagrammatic printed info is easier to digest / revise and revisit than watching a video. So much so that I tend to print out information, rather than reading it from a screen, particularly if it requires careful study and retention.

Videos are great for procedural learning and marketing, however, but most detailed information gets lost.

Perhaps someone will take up the idea to explain FTXG. Personally, i could not imagine it being easier to digest than Rob's post.

[Spacey]

Thanks Ian,

It would be great to see the Orbx team live, and listen to them talk about their designs, tweaking their products for use, what they are up to, Orbx in general, etc ...... But I do understand as you said, it takes time and requires extra time by the staff that are flat out producing great products.

I hope it can be looked at as a potential program, as the information and learning that can be passed on from such an experienced group about FSX and FTX products would just be fantastic.

Thanks again

Spacey

[John Venema]

Podcasts are not on the agenda guys, sorry. We focus on development first and foremost.

[Ripcord]

No FSX product I have seen ever has been more hyped and more promoted and more explained for MONTHS ahead of release than this FTX Global.  Maybe TacPack from VRS, only thing I can think of.  You had to be a fan of one military jet aircraft for that product though, so maybe that was much easier to aim at a specific community thru the forums than is FTXG, which had wider reach I think right off the bat.  And you know what, those VRS forums are also filled with people that are dissatisfied and unhappy and feeling mislead.

 

Can we not just admit that there are some folks out there that are simply impulse buyers?  Is that such a foreign concept?  You just are not going to reach them ahead of time to make them understand - use youtube, written descriptions with screenshots, manuals, graphs, charts, Rorschach tests, whatever you want.  Not that they don't get it, none lack the intellectual capacity to grasp the concept -- it's just that they didn't feel like researching it before clicking that button.  Big bright shiny promo add and tag line: ENTER A WHOLE NEW WORLD. Gotta have it.  Done.

 

Buyer beware.  And I say that because I made the same mistake with some Saitek hardware, thinking they would work with other sims and not just FSX -- WRONG!  And I was just as upset, so I get it.  I paid money, and it doesn't do what I thought it would do!

 

Nope, it does what the seller said it would do, no more, no less.  So that was a 'me' problem and not a seller problem.

[Benny]

I stop doing a lot of research before buying ORBX product. Each one was getting better and better.  What was the point. Like JV mention on another thread SAK as sold 10 time more then NZ (something like that). Me it's not for me, maybe because I live in the north, have winters and fling (even for real) over a white carpet is boring.

 

There is a product for each taste - customers . Some product give a lot and some less. I have a tendency to buy those that give me a lot for the money.

That was my point. Aerosoft have a tendency to price their product according to what you get for your $$$.

 

EX: YPMQ compare to CZST, that is my point here. that 2cm thing is not a must for me. I prefer more attention to the surrounding of the airport I'm buying then ultimate detailing of 2-4 building. For that I'm showing again those 2 screenshot, on one you feel like you could open one door of a building and the next one look like stock FSX

 

 

 

 

The contrast of both image is way to big.

 

When you say it's up to the developer I may understand but new comer may not. It's an ORBX product and not a Russell White one.

 

Again, apology for my other thread.

Trying to be constructive with this one.

 

Ben

 

 

[Ian Routley]

The second image is limited by the apparent resolution of the aerial imagery from what I can see.

Is that what you are referring to?

What would you suggest it requires?

Very few sceneries go outside the airport fence in the way ORBX sceneries do, even in terms of autogen annotation and coverage, let alone custom modelling.

[Benny]

Hi Ian, well, look at this screen shot, this is what I'm trying to explain about CZST missing some surounding.

 

 

Let's face it, a lot of airport show a lot of town stuff in detail far away from the airport. I mean YHBA (Hervey Bay) is far from being the only one showing tone of detail as far away as km/mile. On the second image (above) of CZST those house are 100 feet from the few great few building.

 

I'm blown away by a lot of your product, I mean I think that even sometime your over do it   (NOT).

Take NZMF, it's mind blowing. None of those of what I see are 2CM (I guess it mean a lot of detail up close?)

 

Maybe like you said it's the autogen but my sliders are by the book.

 

This picture is from your own website:

 

[John Venema]

We understand your point, but we will not be changing CZST nor adding any more details. It is up to each developer or team of developers to add as little or much details to the surrounding area as they choose. There is no standard policy for the amount of photoreal coverage for an airport, we approach each airport on a case by case basis.

I am sorry you are not happy with Russ's airport but both the Orbx team and thousands of our customers regard CZST as one of his best works and indeed it has also received awards from the press. Whilst your feedback is appreciated there is no point is continuing to discuss it because we won't be doing any further work on the project.

[Spacey]

Hi JV

Thanks for your reply about the Podcast. I do sadly understand that it is beyond Orbx scope.

I guess I was also asking a second proposal that is not a podcast series. Is it possible to do a narrated video as well as the manual when a new product is introduced, going through the history of the development, issues and and limitations caused by FSX, features included such as flow... features with narration whilst showing these features, issues that the beta tester found and how to resolve any of these that may remain or appear, and show a basic verbal setup stepping through the setting up, and explaining how each feature will affect the visuals and performance. And how to get the very best out of the product as the developer will have such an indepth knowledge of their product, it is irriplacable and is hard to put into a manual. Also, i have noticed many similar questions come out after almost ever product, and these could possibly be addressed in the video whilst the scenery is being shown off. Thus saving the forums many many questions. The videos could then be used a a reference library to each product as a starting point for those looking at purchasing the product. At present videos are done showing the visuals. This would take it to the next level but still showing off the visuals in a more directed way. So much more can be said and demonstrated in a video than what can be presented in a written manual. But both are of course needed.

I know this is a complete change to the way things are being done, and it is giving a video manual as well as the written manual on a product. I am sure it would be successful and most helpful to many who buy the products. But if time is not available to do this, and this also is still in reality outside the scope of Orbx, then I do understand and apologise for raising it. Maybe this is something that can be considered and developed in the long term, if time at present is not there yet. And I thank you for your time in reading this idea, as I do understand you are very busy.

Thanks again for your time and great products.

Spacey

[Ripcord]

@Spacey

 

I hear you on the youtube content -- I actually assembled my own computer -- video card, memory, whole bit, by watching a good youtube instructional video.  Had to use my laptop from work to do it but it was fine for that.  There is a LOT of good 'how-to' content on youtube now. However, I think the overwhelming majority of it is 'user-generated' or 'home-made' if you will.  Probably somebody here among us will do something like what you describe. 

 

JV speaks for his company himself, but I just don't see these guys absorbing that kind of cost.  Now that said, it might not be a bad idea if it saves time answering the same FAQs.... I swear I see these guys answer the same 5-10 questions on these forums EVERY SINGLE DAY.  It's almost to the point that any one of about 250 frequent denizens of this forum are answering questions for new folks, posting links to 'already asked/answered here' threads, etc.  I remember when Global was on the way, somebody drew a picutre of the structure of the scenery, what fits on top of what and that really helped a LOT.  So maybe a some of that could get 'you-tubed' in the form of a FAQ video.  Who knows, perhaps one of these staff moderators (who is already just about worn out answering the same scenery installation order question) might decide to whip off a quick screengrab 'how-to' video -- wouldn't put it past them.

[FLighT]

"Dear Developer, 

 

This morning I purchased your scenery product "123" and installed it into FSX. While waiting for the computer to reboot I put my dog, Spot, out in the back yard. I came back into the house, fired up the FSX program and loaded a flight at my local airport.

 

I have been flying for hours and am unable to:

 

1. Locate my neighborhood

2. Let alone find my street or house

3. How am I to confirm that Spot is still in the backyard

 

When will a patch correcting this problem be available?

 

My wife, Jane, also flys FSX and will also be disappointed with your product and especially how much I spent for it.

 

I don't want to switch to (another developers) product "ABC", but if you can't fix these bugs I will be forced to.

 

Dick"

[wolfko]

"Dear Developer, 

 

This morning I purchased your scenery product "123" and installed it into FSX. While waiting for the computer to reboot I put my dog, Spot, out in the back yard. I came back into the house, fired up the FSX program and loaded a flight at my local airport.

 

I have been flying for hours and am unable to:

 

1. Locate my neighborhood

2. Let alone find my street or house

3. How am I to confirm that Spot is still in the backyard

 

When will a patch correcting this problem be available?

 

My wife, Jane, also flys FSX and will also be disappointed with your product and especially how much I spent for it.

 

I don't want to switch to (another developers) product "ABC", but if you can't fix these bugs I will be forced to.

 

Dick"

 

     

 

 

Wolfgang

[rockliffe]

"Dear Developer, 

 

This morning I purchased your scenery product "123" and installed it into FSX. While waiting for the computer to reboot I put my dog, Spot, out in the back yard. I came back into the house, fired up the FSX program and loaded a flight at my local airport.

 

I have been flying for hours and am unable to:

 

1. Locate my neighborhood

2. Let alone find my street or house

3. How am I to confirm that Spot is still in the backyard

 

When will a patch correcting this problem be available?

 

My wife, Jane, also flys FSX and will also be disappointed with your product and especially how much I spent for it.

 

I don't want to switch to (another developers) product "ABC", but if you can't fix these bugs I will be forced to.

 

Dick"

 

:lol:

[NoLonger]

3. How am I to confirm that Spot is still in the backyard

 

LOL But oh my, that would be the day... I hope I live long enough to see this happen! Probably not, though...

[boleyd]

Spacey has a VERY good point about video versus the printed word. It was pointed out that there are several written explanations of the Global product. However, each one differs slightly and, unless the customer is flight, graphics, and PC literate, they can easily be confused by subtle differences.

 

A proper video for a product that explains the product has significant potential. For almost any subject a video will be an improvement over the written word. Now, the written word will be superior for the nitty gritty details. Here is where specifics go. But for that overview of the product (not the usual showcase) video is definitely better.

 

I hope the "not invented here" attitude does not prevail in Orbx.

[Ian Routley]

Boley

Discrepancies in videos are no less misleading, they just fly under the radar because the information is not absorbed.

The very fact that you note discrepancies in the written posts proves the point: you have been able to digest the information more thoroughly and at your own pace, and in some detail. You are engaging your brain in a more pro-active way than you do when you watch a video.

Contrary to what was stated above, learning is not necessarily 'better' via a video. Easier, and more passive, requiring less effort ... Possibly. Like watching TV as opposed to reading a book.

BTW, exactly WHAT are the discrepancies?

[VonClout]

It seems to me in the past few days that I have seen a few posts here and on other forums where people are expecting 'the moon on a stick' when referring to all things OrbX. They then start OrbX-bashing when they don't seem to get a satisfactory answer. This happened over at AirdailyX on an OrbX thread where comments have now been disabled because people don't know how to conduct themselves on the internet.

 

Maybe some people need to start managing their expectations better before installing certain software.

 

Just my 2 pence worth, rant now over.

 

Simon

[Benny]

Buy a product (any):

I have own stores (toys-hobby shop) for wile back in the days, at the time customer was king. With time the sellers gain some right.

 

I'm a big believer in that: The customer as a job before buying, searching for best price VS quality VS good deal.

If the customer fail to do it's job it's not the seller problem. A good seller should also be fair to keep his customers.

 

Here is a simple example:  A guy come in and want an RC helicopter (at that time they where nitro only and expensive and hard to fly), I say you will need to join a club and learn how to fly, adjust the bird and maintain it. IT'S NOT A TOY. He looked ok wit that. A few days later he come back with the thing in 1000' pieces... and he now want his money back. We had a FIRM no return and no exchange policy on any "I played with it" product. I did even told him so very carefully.

 

Some others customers where a blast to deal with with plenty of good advice, critic and suggestions on product and how to sell them.

 

If I want to sell (in my Country) a TV for 1 million (worth 750$) I have the right to do so, if a customer is stupid enough to buy it... well I can retired

 

Buying a software is more... delicate. Even if there is many review, critic and so on.

 

I made my point here and I had an answer. So I have learned something. I will better look at all pictures of a scenery before I buy them.

 

I think that ORBX is pretty fair showing a lot of good pictures on a product page and adding our video. They took a few from me and I proud of that.

[Spacey]

As a retired Medical University lecturer, three things are used in teaching to get the best out of a student. Text for reading, then this is followed by a lecture that expands of the written text, and the use of demonstration/ animation, to resolve any final confusion.

When investigating a product to buy, I do look for written reviews, the forums and even Youtube, then once purchased, I read the text, but finalise it with video / animation where ever possible, as so much more can be said and demonstrated on video than in the text ( and is far less boring in many cases). The live video demonstrations allow me to better understand and interpret the meanings of the written words in the manual.

One of the problems found during my many years of lecturing was how many different interpretations could be made out of the same written instruction (sometimes 60 interpretations out of 60 students) But when explained verbally and then demonstrated, most students comprehend and it would come down from 60 to only one interpretation of the same text. By use of video on Youtube, etc, the process can be watched over and over and step by step at the students pace (a blessing for us lecturers).

The results of the introduction of practical demonstration and animation has been clearly shown in scientific research to improve learning outcome and confidence considerably. This is not disputed in any of the research. Text is till important as a reference point, but results of understaning are far far superior when all three (text, lecture and demonstration) are combined.

These forums are filled with repeatative questions of each and all products, as many appear to be struggling in many areas such as understand the terminology used, and the interpretations of the answers are often not fully understood or interpreted the same way by everyone, or as the writer meant. A significant amount of time appears to be lost by the developers and others trying to explain the same thing over and over again to people who interprete the answers in multiple ways. This further seems to support current research relating to where text only is used.

It is not about my opinion whether video lecturing and demonstration/animation is superior or not. As a lecturer I look at the scientific research and it is overwhelmingly clear that text alone leads to multiple interpretations and decreased learning and productivity outcome. This is why so many companies producing products now use video to present their product to customers covering it's development, how to set it up correclty, address issues that may arise, so as to reduce error, complaints, and improve consumer satisfaction with the product.

If Orbx is comfortable they are acheiving their goal in consumer product information through the manuals and forums at this stage, then, that is their decision which I am sure is based on good solid consumer based research, which l understand and highly respect, and maybe the use of video is too early for them based on this research information they have obtained.

As an individual, Newbie and potentially a minority in this consumer based research, I find the manuals limited in the information that l personally desire and often need to know to give me the understanding and confidence that l am doing everything correctly, but i still cannot understand why I cannot achieve fantastic results like he Orbx advertising videos show. And despite trying to follow the forums and explanations, l as a newbie, still do not have the basic knowledge to understand much of the terminology / indepth computer knowledge to follow the answers written unless detailed photos of each step are supplied with good plain layman explanations ( the diagrams for setting up Nvada Inspector were great and easy to follow, but didn't explain why each setting, so if a problem. .... I would have been in trouble).

I have bought but still not loaded FTXGlobal as l am just so confused from all the forum information despite so many trying so hard.. I understand much better what it does thanks to Rob's fantastic animations, but without a guru to actually talk me through step by step the process, and explaining the purpose of each step, and then explain some of the complications that may occur, and how to resolve them, I doubt I will ever load it, as the issues raised in the forums are repetative with answers that appear to me to in some cases be similar but conflicting, and concern me "what if I do something wrong", Will l really get the answer l need in a language l understand, or will l have to reload the whole system again because i just dont understand what is being explained, and the background knowledge has also been left out to help me self diagnose the issue. I would really love to have someone on a video talk through the whole process and reasoning, that l can watch over and over again until l gain the confidence and understanding to take the leap, and I am sure I am not alone in this.

But as I have stated earlier, the consumer research data that has more than likely been collected by Orbx, I feel puts me in a Newbie minority, and so as a medical researcher and lecturer, I feel professionally that l must accept Orbx's decision as a company, it must invest where it is necessary and not spend money in areas that cannot be supported by the data.

Maybe a customer with excellent knowledge of FSX terminology, as well as in FSX and Orbx fundamentals can put together a series of videos to assist us minority of Newbies struggling wit FTXGlobal in particular, and then develop a series videos on other Orbx products to help walk us Newbies thought the manual, explaining the program, how it works in with FSX, and how it fits in, demonstrate the loading steps in more depth with explanations and the whys, and especially where it should appear in the scenery list and again why, and address the common issues raised over and over again in the forums. This would just be fantastic to us obvious small minority who want to learn and understand more about our hobby.

Thanks all for listening to my thoughts. And thank you for anyone who may be willing to step forward to help us Newbies grow in our knowledge of FSX and the fantastic Orbx products.

Best wishes to all

Spacey