A question about the accuracy of ORBX's landclass for OpenLC NA

[Mac_Maddog88]

Hey all!

So, I've been wondering about LC NA, will the landclass just be made more precise with more sets of new textures, or will special care be taken to make sure that forests and fields in Florida actually look like Florida, or farmland in Indiana actually looks like what would grow in that region rather than a state down South such as Alabama? Just how precise and tailored to each area of the US will this new landclass be?

-Mac

[Bruce Hamilton]

I would expect it to look very much like OpenLC Europe.  They aren't going to tailor Florida to look like Florida, that would be for full fat regions.

[Geezer]

I don't understand. Why wouldn't Florida look like Florida? That's what a good landclass should do. Are you saying the Europe LC doesn't look like Europe? I don't know. Never been there.

[teecee]

No mate..That's what "full Fat" does.. The LC files, as I understand it, simply replace the existing scenery textures with more realistic textures..At least that's how I interpret it. Teecee.

[dave302]

I would expect it to look very much like OpenLC Europe.  They aren't going to tailor Florida to look like Florida, that would be for full fat regions.

I must disagree based on what I've seen with openLC Europe.  There are indeed custom textures for different regions within the openLC coverage area.  For example, the farmland in Eastern Europe uses different textures than that for Western Europe, which is very realistic.

 

I'm quite confident that south Florida and the Caribbean areas will indeed have custom textures that represent terrain that doesn't exist in other parts of North America. I presume that this will be the case with other regions within the coverage area as well.

 

I'm also guessing that having all this customized, more accurate scenery is a big part of the reason why development is taking so long.  I'm actually glad if this is the case because although it's frustrating to have to wait so long for this much anticipated scenery, I'm sure that the wait will be well worth it.

[OldAirmail]

Rule #1 - don't use a sim to fly over your home.

 

The more you know your area, the less it'll look like what you know.

 

 

Until we have supper supper computers, that contain every inch of the earth in fine detail, the best we can do is to make other areas look believable.

 

And that's what the "full fat" areas attempt to do: make the area more believable.

 

And that's why I find myself buying more and more Orbx/FTX scenery.

 

What you see below here is only a partial list of what I own.

[Geezer]

I still don't understand. Some of you guys are saying that Florida could look like Montana because it isn't a fat region?

Ok, a fat region also provides airports and points of interest. It also provides vector but forget about that because there's now global vector. What a fat does to make an area look like itself is provide landclass and textures for that area. Isn't that what OpenLC does? In other words, OpenLC does exactly what a fat area does minus the vector, airports and points of interest plus maybe some minor stuff I don't know about. And OpenLC might not be quite as detailed and accurate in the area covered by fat but will be good enough especially for someone who doesn't know the area. All of us don't know more than 99% of any OpenLC area.

[jabloomf1230]

No mate..That's what "full Fat" does.. The LC files, as I understand it, simply replace the existing scenery textures with more realistic textures..At least that's how I interpret it. Teecee.

No, that's incorrect. FTX Global provides the textures for each land class globally. FTX Global LC provides the actual land class polygons which are then painted with the textures. Here's the legend for the most up date land class dataset for the US (the Canadian dataset is similar);

 

http://www.mrlc.gov/nlcd11_leg.php

 

The trick is matching this dataset up against the FSX/P3d LC categories. As you did state, in order to get regional variability in buildings and vegetation within a smaller geographic area, the best option is a full fat ORBX region.

[teecee]

So we must agree to disagree.. How about one of "The Team" give us their version? Teecee.

[Geezer]

So we must agree to disagree.. How about one of "The Team" give us their version? Teecee.

Sorry but you are incorrect. If you look at the fat England program, the landclass and textures in the England program should be basically the same as the landclass and textures in the OpenLC Europe in the England area. The main difference between the two is the England program provides additional features such as airports, vector, mesh.

[RancidViper]

As far as I understand it, LC is just telling the sim where to use it's textures. It doesn't add, replace or change any textures.

 

It's like, you have a pink car sticker, but you don't know where to paste it. The LC will paste it where it has been told the pink sticker should go. The sticker itself was already present, just that LC put it in the top right of the windscreen.

 

So no, florida won't look like florida texture wise, but it will have a better representation of where certain landmarks/cities/forests/rivers actually are.

 

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong ORBX team.

[gfd]

OP do yourself a favour. Don't question anything. Wait for release. See screenshots and then make a purchase decision. The alternative is to get caught in an endless loop. Orbx create spme great stuff. Bit it is not real life. If you ask a speculative question you will get caught between extremes.

[dominique]

I see that the expectations for OpenLC NA of some are low  . They are wrong. Yes, it will look like Florida and that for two reasons :

 

- OpenLC NA will do a better job than default to call the right textures of the ground fabric.  USGS digital data are not bad but my guess is that OrbX is using more technology than that (optical recognition of imagery ?)

 

- and John V already said that special textures were developped for NA, including Florida if I remember it well

 

Now this a generic scenery and it will not be as precise as a fat region of course. OldAirMail said something very true : Rule #1 - don't use a sim to fly over your home. The more you know your area, the less it'll look like what you know.

[Gypsy Pilot]

I don't care I just want it released.

 

Mac, Orbx produces the best that you can buy.

Here is the stack.

Global -- Replaces all of the FSX Textures with new and better.

Regional Land Class -- Improves the placement of those textures.

None of the above changes the roads, lakes, shorelines, etc, that is done with Vector programs.

The next step up are the Region Packages like NA Pacific Northwest.

These greatly improve the detail and accuracy of the region above and beyond the Land Class and Vector Programs.

The next step and most accurate are the airport packs which are as close to the real thing as you can get.

 

Dale

[birdguy]

It looks like Dale nailed it.  Nothing more to be said.

 

Noel

[Rob Newman]

Good explaination by Dale...

 

Just to add to the discussion though, I'll try to define what each product is and does... hopefully that will help to further explain the differences between them. You can also read this guide to get a better idea of what I'm about to say means: http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/74345-the-definitive-guide-to-ftx-products-the-go-to-source-of-ftx-information/

 

FTX Global Base:

 

FTX Global Base Pack's main function is to replace the sim's existing default textures (what you actually see when you fly) with newer, better looking versions. This is on a pure "like for like" basis... There are no textures added, just old textures replaced one for one. These new textures also include the new night lighting system embedded into the textures. 

 

Because the textures have to be used in various parts of the world and there is a limited pool to choose from, some textures are "tweaked" to provide a "best average" result that would look decent in both those locations... ideally, if a texture is being used in 4 world locations, there would be 4 truly regionalized textures to use, but with the default system's limitations, only one "best fit" texture can be utilized.

 

This can result in some areas looking "not quite right"... It's simply a result of the default system... if it didn't look quite right before FTX Global Base Pack, chances are it still won't look quite right after.

 

FTX Global OpenLC:

 

This is where OpenLC comes in. Landclass data is the underlying data that instructs the sim to display a particular texture in a particular location. OpenLC provides updated, more accurate landclass data in a 1km x 1km grid pattern. That way, a large area of terrain can be defined quickly and easily.

 

OpenLC also provides custom textures in addition to those provided with FTX Global Base pack. these additional custom textures allow for two things... we can finally get around the "one texture for multiple areas" limitation, and have truly regionalized textures to use, and it helps to avoid the obvious repetition seen in the default world.

 

So OpenLC adds better regionalization and less repetition to the textures you see as you fly. In other words, Florida will look more like Florida That said, there are still some data limitations that are in effect.

 

FTX Global Vector:

 

Vector data is simply put, any data that follows a specific shape. It can be a line feature (roads, railways, power lines etc), or a polygon feature (large rivers, coastlines, beaches etc). the combination of these datasets helps to add real world shapes and features to the terrain.

 

At this level, the coastlines and transportation networks (among other things) will now take on a real world shape. So one more thing to bring Florida closer to reality.

 

FS Global Mesh:

 

This is the 3D definition of the terrain and is quite literally the way mountains, valleys and hills are formed. Lets be honest though, in Florida that means the Pompano Beach landfill only (I did my flight training out of Ft. Lauderdale).

 

 

These are the 4 basic layers of flight sim scenery.

 

As for the full fat regions, they provide all the above layers (texture, landclass, vector and mesh) but with one key difference... Full fat regions make extensive use of VECTOR LANDCLASS... it's a specialized way of defining the shape of a specific area of landclass... for example, the shape of a city boundary. With standard landclass data, the city shape will be defined by a 1km x 1km grid... vector landclass allows a more defined, custom shape to be used.

 

This key difference, along with all the airports within the area of a full region being upgraded, makes the full regions the best to be had. Of course creating this type of advanced vector landclass takes many hours and is mostly done by hand... so it's reserved for the full regions only.

 

 

So long story short... OpenLC NA will make Florida look more like Florida, much as OpenLC EU makes Germany look more like Germany. There are still some basic limitations within the way the sim works, and the shapes of features will not be changed (that's Vector's job), but it will make a big difference and bring it closer to reality. It certainly won't add fine details like specific service stations or buildings, but the everglades will look generally like the everglades, and downtown Miami will look more like downtown Miami.

[birdguy]

One more comment.

Orbx products are very accurate on the macro scale. I routinely fly over familiar areas and roads, lakes, waterways, parks, golf courses, railroads, small towns, bridges, and the like are accurate enough to fly by pilotage with a good chart.

On the micro scale, however, you will not see the house you live in, the school you went to, church you attend, or your favorite restaurant. Certain landmarks like Coit Tower on Telegraph Hill and the Ferry Building in San Francisco are readily identifiable.

But you are not driving a car...you are flying an airplane. Planes do not drop you off at your front door.

Noel

[dominique]

 Our friend Outrage has been with us  for a while and, I am sure, knows the difference entre OrbX various products !  What he (I suppose he is a he) is asking was answered twice

 

OpenLC NA is due this year and Florida looks sensational with it. Add Vector to it and you have 85% of what you need for a region apart from airport upgrades.

 

 

OpenLC NA will seriously upgrade the entire USA, Canada and Mexico. You're going to love the new textures for Florida and the Midwest for example.

[BaronKen]

I surely hope that enough progress has been made with OpenLC NA that we will soon get to see some screenshots of what's coming. It has been a long, long time in the making.... hope it won't be too much longer.

[Mac_Maddog88]

OP do yourself a favour. Don't question anything. Wait for release. See screenshots and then make a purchase decision. The alternative is to get caught in an endless loop. Orbx create spme great stuff. Bit it is not real life. If you ask a speculative question you will get caught between extremes.

Oh either way I'll purchase it!

[Mac_Maddog88]

Good explaination by Dale...

 

Just to add to the discussion though, I'll try to define what each product is and does... hopefully that will help to further explain the differences between them. You can also read this guide to get a better idea of what I'm about to say means: http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/74345-the-definitive-guide-to-ftx-products-the-go-to-source-of-ftx-information/

 

FTX Global Base:

 

FTX Global Base Pack's main function is to replace the sim's existing default textures (what you actually see when you fly) with newer, better looking versions. This is on a pure "like for like" basis... There are no textures added, just old textures replaced one for one. These new textures also include the new night lighting system embedded into the textures. 

 

Because the textures have to be used in various parts of the world and there is a limited pool to choose from, some textures are "tweaked" to provide a "best average" result that would look decent in both those locations... ideally, if a texture is being used in 4 world locations, there would be 4 truly regionalized textures to use, but with the default system's limitations, only one "best fit" texture can be utilized.

 

This can result in some areas looking "not quite right"... It's simply a result of the default system... if it didn't look quite right before FTX Global Base Pack, chances are it still won't look quite right after.

 

FTX Global OpenLC:

 

This is where OpenLC comes in. Landclass data is the underlying data that instructs the sim to display a particular texture in a particular location. OpenLC provides updated, more accurate landclass data in a 1km x 1km grid pattern. That way, a large area of terrain can be defined quickly and easily.

 

OpenLC also provides custom textures in addition to those provided with FTX Global Base pack. these additional custom textures allow for two things... we can finally get around the "one texture for multiple areas" limitation, and have truly regionalized textures to use, and it helps to avoid the obvious repetition seen in the default world.

 

So OpenLC adds better regionalization and less repetition to the textures you see as you fly. In other words, Florida will look more like Florida That said, there are still some data limitations that are in effect.

 

FTX Global Vector:

 

Vector data is simply put, any data that follows a specific shape. It can be a line feature (roads, railways, power lines etc), or a polygon feature (large rivers, coastlines, beaches etc). the combination of these datasets helps to add real world shapes and features to the terrain.

 

At this level, the coastlines and transportation networks (among other things) will now take on a real world shape. So one more thing to bring Florida closer to reality.

 

FS Global Mesh:

 

This is the 3D definition of the terrain and is quite literally the way mountains, valleys and hills are formed. Lets be honest though, in Florida that means the Pompano Beach landfill only (I did my flight training out of Ft. Lauderdale).

 

 

These are the 4 basic layers of flight sim scenery.

 

As for the full fat regions, they provide all the above layers (texture, landclass, vector and mesh) but with one key difference... Full fat regions make extensive use of VECTOR LANDCLASS... it's a specialized way of defining the shape of a specific area of landclass... for example, the shape of a city boundary. With standard landclass data, the city shape will be defined by a 1km x 1km grid... vector landclass allows a more defined, custom shape to be used.

 

This key difference, along with all the airports within the area of a full region being upgraded, makes the full regions the best to be had. Of course creating this type of advanced vector landclass takes many hours and is mostly done by hand... so it's reserved for the full regions only.

 

 

So long story short... OpenLC NA will make Florida look more like Florida, much as OpenLC EU makes Germany look more like Germany. There are still some basic limitations within the way the sim works, and the shapes of features will not be changed (that's Vector's job), but it will make a big difference and bring it closer to reality. It certainly won't add fine details like specific service stations or buildings, but the everglades will look generally like the everglades, and downtown Miami will look more like downtown Miami.

Great to hear this! Exactly what I was wanting to know!

Now that Florida is out of the way, will the more tropical areas such as the Caribbean and Hawaii have custom textures? Currently, they look rather... For lack of a better word, suburban, developed. I had gotten the FlyTampa Granadines scenery which makes use of satellite imagery and the result is scenery that looks just like that of ORBX's Pago Pago, it'd be amazing to see islands in the global scenery so pretty. I have the highest hopes for LC NA so I know ORBX must be doing something special here.

[FrancoisB]

I hope that the landclass in LC NA makes more sense than in FTX Pacific NW, because in FTX Pacific NW I see green farmland in spring near Vancouver, but in summer most farmland shows up as plain sand. Sometimes I wonder whether they switched spring and summer textures by mistake.

[Mac_Maddog88]

I hope that the landclass in LC NA makes more sense than in FTX Pacific NW, because in FTX Pacific NW I see green farmland in spring near Vancouver, but in summer most farmland shows up as plain sand. Sometimes I wonder whether they switched spring and summer textures by mistake.

Are you running FTX Central in Hybrid mode? That could possibly be why.

[Holger Sandmann]

Hi Francois,

 

 

 

I hope that the landclass in LC NA makes more sense than in FTX Pacific NW, because in FTX Pacific NW I see green farmland in spring near Vancouver, but in summer most farmland shows up as plain sand. Sometimes I wonder whether they switched spring and summer textures by mistake.

 

looks like you're perhaps not familiar with the true climate of the PNW; see http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/100006-seasonal-textures-fat-regions/?p=904175

 

Cheers, Holger

[dominique]

Hi Francois,

 

 

looks like you're perhaps not familiar with the true climate of the PNW; see http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/100006-seasonal-textures-fat-regions/?p=904175

 

Cheers, Holger

 

Missed that thread. Very interesting Holger. Beautiful and enlightening pics.

[Geezer]

I don't live very far from Holger in eastern Washington but spent most of my adult life on the western side. The two sides are completely different. Holger is right on. Rain in the spring, although not so much this year, and dry in the summer.

[birdguy]

And the reason the French named it pelouse; 'place of the short grass'. (now called The Palouse).

Noel

[Geezer]

And the reason the French named it pelouse; 'place of the short grass'. (now called The Palouse).

Noel

LOL. I live in the town of Palouse which is in The Palouse. An incredibly beautiful area.

[dominique]

LOL. I live in the town of Palouse which is in The Palouse. An incredibly beautiful area.

 

Google Earth shows an incredible patchwork of tender green and light brown around Palouse which looks, at ground level, a lovely town with a lot of trees (at least for the region   ).

[Geezer]

Google Earth shows an incredible patchwork of tender green and light brown around Palouse which looks, at ground level, a lovely town with a lot of trees (at least for the region   ).

Yeah, it's a farming area. Palouse is a very nice town but, like lots of towns around here, it's going downhill. It's in Whitman county which is iirc the poorest county in the state. There's Pullman with Washington State Universtiy and not much else. But I'm retired and enjoy it. Nice seasonal weather. Nice people. Very little crime. I read about the crap going on in the country and world. It all seems so far away.

[birdguy]

Yeah, it's a farming area. Palouse is a very nice town but, like lots of towns around here, it's going downhill. It's in Whitman county which is iirc the poorest county in the state. There's Pullman with Washington State Universtiy and not much else. But I'm retired and enjoy it. Nice seasonal weather. Nice people. Very little crime. I read about the crap going on in the country and world. It all seems so far away.

Roswell is much the same way. Our main industries are dairy and pecan orchards. In fact I have two huge pecan trees in my yard and this year we had a bumper crop. We picked up over 40 pounds and left the rest for the squirrels.

No air or water pollution. Almost every day I can look west and see the peaks of the Sacramento mountains 90 miles to the west.

There are a lot of Palouses and Roswells in the world. Little backwaters left behind in the wake turbulence of a rapidly changing planet and society.

Noel

[dominique]

BTW "pelouse" (la p'louse in colloquial French) is the word for lawn, like in lawn mower or "darling, you have to mow the lawn"

[birdguy]

Isn't lawn short grass Dominique?

 

I'm too old to be bothered with stuff like mowing the lawn and other yard chores.  I have yard guy who come out every other week and mows the pelouse as well as other stuff.  

 

Noel

[Geezer]

Roswell is much the same way. Our main industries are dairy and pecan orchards. In fact I have two huge pecan trees in my yard and this year we had a bumper crop. We picked up over 40 pounds and left the rest for the squirrels.

No air or water pollution. Almost every day I can look west and see the peaks of the Sacramento mountains 90 miles to the west.

There are a lot of Palouses and Roswells in the world. Little backwaters left behind in the wake turbulence of a rapidly changing planet and society.

Noel

We know what else Roswell is famous for lol.

[dominique]

Isn't lawn short grass Dominique?

 

I'm too old to be bothered with stuff like mowing the lawn and other yard chores.  I have yard guy who come out every other week and mows the pelouse as well as other stuff.  

 

Noel

 

You can get short grass and not a lawn, in a prairie for instance (another word brought to you by French trappers), a pelouse is a lawn, dressed up short grass. And, believe me, the grass grows always longer than one wished for. However, 120 minutes swiftly pushing a mower is an excellent aerobic exercise (I've a big garden) or so they say  .  

 

Now, are you authorized to water lawns in Roswell ? No ban like in California ? I thought you only had dry, desertic plant gardens. Now, Roswell..., you may have a special kind of lawn.

[dominique]

Yeah, it's a farming area. Palouse is a very nice town but, like lots of towns around here, it's going downhill. It's in Whitman county which is iirc the poorest county in the state. There's Pullman with Washington State Universtiy and not much else. But I'm retired and enjoy it. Nice seasonal weather. Nice people. Very little crime. I read about the crap going on in the country and world. It all seems so far away.

I had a closer look today and  GE actually shows a quilt of sort assembling patches shot from the sky at two periods of the year, one dry, one wet...

[birdguy]

The Pecos aquifer has plenty of water.  We had a moderate drought over the past couple years but this Spring we had a lot of rain and are no longer in drought conditions.  We've never had water restrictions.  We water the lawn for an hour three times a week.  My lawn is fescue. 

 

I understand things are different in western NM.  But they have a different aquifer.

 

My exercise consists solely of walking a mile in the park every morning.  That seems to keep my vital signs on the good side of average (BP average 110/60, pulse rate between 55 and 65, and I'm moderately overweight at 175lbs).  But I don't eat what today would be called a healthy diet.  I eat what I like and what has been sustaining me for 81 years.

 

Noel

[Geezer]

I had a closer look today and  GE actually shows a quilt of sort assembling patches shot from the sky at two periods of the year, one dry, one wet...

It's mostly pretty dry around here. In the spring it rains more, except this year. The area is known for its rolling hills. The patchwork I believe is from the farmers planting different crops but it might just be natural.

[Matthew Kane]

The upcoming North America LC will not be including Florida, because it wasn't necessary, because Florida is Flat and Featureless so default was good enough     

[spud]

The upcoming North America LC will not be including Florida, because it wasn't necessary, because Florida is Flat and Featureless so default was good enough     

Hmmm,

flat ain't Landclass last time I looked.