NOTED Flashing FTX Runways - Anacortes, Orcas, Bella-Coola

[rooby007]

Hi,

I get a weird problem with all of my FTX payware airports (Anacortes, Bella Coola, Bowerman).

When viewed from the virtual cockpit, they look great from any angle.

However, when viewed from any other camera (external aircraft camera, world camera etc), they are covered in flashing, jagged polygons. It looks to me that they are fighting with whatever default texture is underneath and the PC can't decide which one should be on top. But what I can't understand is why it doesn't happen when viewed from inside the aircraft.

I'm running EzDok Camera addon for my cameras, and REX Essentials+ Overdrive for my weather.

I got REX before any ORBX products and so was using runway textures and markings. Now I have FTX airports, I have un-ticked the runway textures within REX, but I'm not sure it 'unloads' the textures. I think they stay loaded (but not even sure this is related).

Would be grateful for any insight as to what I'm doing wrong or how to rectify. Some screenshots attached at this LINK. The areas I have circled actually flash and flicker during flight.

Thanks.

[Stillwater]

Are you running DX10? If so, that would be a well known bug, not only on FTX airports, with the solution fixed by Steve (see here: http://forum.avsim.net/fsx_guide.pdf)

[rooby007]

Hi. Yes, I'm running DX10, but this problem was evident with DX9 too. I assumed it was due to the high-resolution of ORBX payware airports and so figured I'd just have to put up with it.

I've already applied that fix with some improvement, but problem persists to a significant level (albeit from external cameras only).

[Stillwater]

Nono, do not give up. I must be working to full satisfaction! I am sure you do have the latest libraries running?

[rooby007]

Hi. I didn't, but now I have! No improvement though.

I'm wondering if it's an AntiAliasing issue? If I fly around the airfield at ~500-1000ft in a tight turn, the airfield textures look ok from some angles and then all of a sudden, the runway, apron and windsock circle (I'm test flying at Anacortes) all start flashing with jagged white polygons like in my picture.

Right now I'm testing, so I have everything dialled down in terms of autogen, traffic, peopleflow etc. So I'm sure it's not system resources that are the issue. All essential settings from the airport installation guide are set appropriately. Any ideas?

[Tim Harris]

You shouldn't get this issue with Bowerman as it uses a default FSX runway surface, the others have custom gmax runways, REX also will not cause any issues.

1 - Check your mesh settings ... 100% complexity, 5m resolution for the US west coast Orbx stuff

2 - Cycle FTXcentral to [Default] and back to [North America]

3 - Do you use any 3rd party AI products?

4 - R.e the issue at Bowerman.. have you installed the PNW SP5 servicepatch?

[rooby007]

Hi Tim.

You're right - I checked and it's not happening at Bowerman.

- My settings are as per your note / Anacortes User Guide

- I cycled FTX Central - no improvement

- I don't have any 3rd party AI, only FTX NA AI but now have that disabled while I troubleshoot

- I have PNW SP5 installed

I thought it might help to see the problem in action - I uploaded a short video HERE. I hope it gives you some clues?!

Reminder - I'm running DX10, but got the same issue at Bella Coola with DX9.

[mickwilliams36]

I am having exactly the same problem with some Uk2000 airports on top of ORBX England. I've already removed the ORBX bgl and object files for the UK2000 airpots I have and made sure I only have one AFCAD file for each airport, but I am still getting exactly the same flashing runways and parking areas as Rooby007.

I'm also using REX textures and EZDok, but I'm not in DX10 preview mode.

I shall be watching this thread with great interest as I'd love to get this problem fixed.

[Tim Harris]

Hi guys,

This may actually be the FSX groundpoly flickering, I'll ask Jarrad to drop by in regards to Anacortes

Cheers

Tim

[rockliffe]

I too experience this to certain extent. I think it ma be accentuated by using Texture_Max_Load=4096...

[Jarrad Marshall]

G'day Andy,

Just following up from Tim's suggestions, I can confirm that there is a known limitation with the type of ground poly I used at Anacortes (and also found at some other ORBX airports too). This problem presents itself most prominently when looking at the ground from a long distance and high zoom (and is augmented when looking from a top-down angle). That said though, having just had a quick test on my machine and comparing it to your video, the issue seems to be happening much sooner than expected on your machine - I wasn't getting any problems until reaching an altitude of around 4000-5000ft. In DX9 mode, are you using any heavy tweaks to your FSX.cfg?

Cheers,

Jarrad

[rooby007]

Hi Jarrad, thanks for stopping by!

I didn't think I was using any 'heavy' tweaks in DX9 or DX10.

However, I just went back to DX9 and started with a fresh CFG file to see what happened and after setting the scenery up as per the ORBX user guides, I can report that the issue presented itself at Anacortes, Orcas Island and Bella Coola. The issue wasn't apparent to anything like the same degree at Milford Sound.

I thought initially that it might be due to my system not being able to handle the 2cm textures at Bella Coola (I was getting very low frame rates as well), so reluctantly I flew there less and bought KORS and Anacortes - thinking that at 15cm, they would be more system-friendly. I must admit to being a bit disappointed to see the exact same problem at these airfields too.

What's strange to me is that when viewed from inside the cockpit, all these airfields look fine from pretty much any angle. It's only when I view them from an exterior camera (like in the video) that the problem becomes glaringly obvious - from as low as 1500ft.

[Jarrad Marshall]

G'day Andy, that's very odd indeed, especially if you've tested with a clean FSX.cfg. Does the issue present itself when using different types of aircraft (when in exterior camera mode) or is it limited to one type only?

Cheers,

Jarrad

[rooby007]

Hi Jarrad.

I just did a few check flights. Problem is evident to the same degree on all of the following: default C172, RealAir Legacy, Alabeo Extra and Carenado C152.

Would this be anything to do with me using REX to load runway textures? I had REX before I bought any ORBX stuff and used it for runway textures. Since then, I have added various ORBX airports and I wonder if there is now a conflict between the default FSX textures, the REX textures, and then the FTX ones on top of that? Or does it not work like that?!

[Jarrad Marshall]

G'day Andy,

The REX runways shouldn't affect the GP at all - whilst it lies underneath it won't be interacting with the 74S runway. Just to clarify (for my sake!), are there any other ORBX airports that this is a problem at besides Anacortes?

Cheers

[rooby007]

Hi. Yes - as mentioned above, the issue presents itself at Anacortes, Orcas Island and Bella Coola. The issue wasn't apparent to anything like the same degree at Milford Sound (the individual parking stands flicker slightly, but the runway and apron seem pretty robust).

[rooby007]

Hi Jarrad,

 

Any progress working out how to fix this issue?

 

Thanks,

 

Andy

[Tim Harris]

Hi Andy,

 

I edited the title a little to encourage a reply regarding Orcas and Bella-coola from the developers responsible, I also asked Jarrad to drop in again in case its slipped

 

Cheers
Tim

[rooby007]

Hi,

As promised, here's a new video to better illustrate the issue:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uixhp57r7bh3ke1/orca%201200.wmv

 

This was taken at Orcas Island, 1200ft agl, 0.5x zoom.

 

Notice how the flashing stops at ~15sec and everything is fine - however it will start again at the exact same point in the next orbit.

[Jarrad Marshall]

G'day Andy,

 

Thanks very much for the video - that gives us an excellent idea of your issue. Unfortunately I am away from my development computer at the moment (on the road travelling at the moment - apologies for the lateness in my response), however I did look into your GP issue at Anacortes on my own machine before I left. Unfortunately I am absolutely stumped - I can't replicate your issue at all, and am at a loss to explain it. Given you have the problem consistent across several airports (Anacortes, Orcas etc) I can only guess that the problem may be related to a non-ORBX issue, perhaps GPU related. 

 

Just to confirm again that you have tried these airports with the following settings:

 

- Clean FSX.cfg

- All non-ORBX addon sceneries in the area (addon mesh, other non-ORBX PNW airports etc) disabled

- Mesh set to 5m 

- Filtering set to Anisotropic

 

If so, a couple of questions and things for you to try:

- What screen resolution do you run at? 

- Have a play with with your external graphics card settings - filtering, anti-aliasing etc. 

 

Cheers,

Jarrad

[Russ White]

GP flicker is one of the negative effects of using an FSX native ground poly, however you seem to be experiencing a very exaggerated form of this side effect for some reason. When i set the GP altitude for Bella Coola, i made sure there was no flicker below 6000ft on my machine, but during testing some team members were reporting that flicker started at 4000ft which i could not replicate. It seems this flicker threshold varies from system to system due to variables unknown, but as a general rule make sure you are running terrain mesh at 5m or lower, and when viewing the aircraft from external cameras, bring the view zoom back to 30 or 40%.

 

Unfortunately i cannot adjust the GP at bella coola now, as several thousand individual object placements are set to it's current height, which would disappear underground if the GP were to be raised now. But as Jarrad has stated above, it would be good to understand why your system exaggerates this problem when compared to other users systems who see no problem below 6000ft?

 

Russ.

[rooby007]

Hi.

 

Yes - clean FSX.cfg

The only non-ORBX scenery I have is FlyTampa St Maarten.

Mesh is set to 5m

Filtering set to Trilinear / AA off (controlled separately via Nvidia Inspector)

However, just tried AA 'on' and set to 'anisotropic' - no improvement

Screen res is 1920x1200x32

 

I have no idea what to tweak on the GPU settings. Suggestions gratefully accepted! See this link for my FSX and NI settings: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ye91c30txsuiohb/b9RNCBL27P

 

QUESTION: The flickering isn't apparent from the VC, only external cameras, Does this give you any clues? I am using EZCA.

 

Thanks.

[Russ White]

Your view zoom is an important factor in this and you have not stated what you have it set to when using external cams?

 

Also, try moving up your CYBD entry in your scenery library to the top of the list just as a test, it shouldnt make a difference on paper, but you never know with FSX, it has a lot of issues relating to priorities.

 

Russ.

[rooby007]

Hi Russ,

 

The video I posted above was taken at x0.5 zoom with an external cam.

 

I just tried repeating that flight at Orcas Island while varying the zoom. In summary, larger zooms made the flickering appear pretty much on demand where there had been none. However, reducing the zoom to x0.3 did not reduce the flickering as seen in the video at all.

 

I then flew a test flight at CYBD. Flickering starts below 2,000ft agl at all zoom levels. A second flight with CYBD moved to the top of the scenery library made no difference. 

[Russ White]

Can i just confirm that you have FTX PFJ region installed? i know you have FTX PNW installed, but CYBD is in the PFJ region so i would like you to clear that up for me please.

 

Other than that, i am fast running out of avenues to explore with this one, it's difficult to for me to give specific resolutions when i cant replicate what you are seeing, all i can do is work through logical possible causes and eliminate them one by one, and i'm sorry to say i am at the bottom of that list now.

 

On the positive side, from inside the cockpit you say there is no flicker problem, so flying 'normally' is unaffected, but i can understand the irritation of not being able to use other external views at these locations.

 

If i think of anything else, or further feedback or findings alerts me to a possible resolution, i will post here again.

 

Let me know about the PFJ region though

 

Many thanks

 

Russ.

[rooby007]

Hi Russ,

 

Yes - I do have PFJ installed - along with Patch v3 and Orbx Libraries 130504 (see attached pic):

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w0bzf5lb4ek61y2/orbx%20installed.JPG

 

I also did another short video:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3157hinadaefpf2/coolaflash4.wmv

 

Here I am at ~1,200ft agl in the default C172 at Bella Coola. VC camera is set to x0.4 zoom and the airfield is crystal clear outside (download the video to see the original quality).

 

When I switch to an outside camera @ x0.3 zoom, you can see the issue I have.

 

The most frustrating thing about this is that when I first trialed FTX using the PNW demo, I didn't get any of this at Bowerman (which was free!!). Now I'm getting this issue on the payware airports and that seems the wrong way round to me.

 

I'm sure there may be a setting somewhere that I could adjust, but I am confident my hardware in general is up to the job (I built the rig specially for running FSX) so I'm keen to get to the bottom of this as it seems other people either don't have the issue, or it is much less noticeable.

 

Thanks for your continued help!

 

Andy

[Russ White]

Hi Andy,

 

If you run a search of your entire FSX directory for anything containing "CYBD" does it find any entries outside of the "...\ORBX\FTX_NA\FTX_AA_CYBD" folder?

 

Russ

[rooby007]

Hi Russ,

 

Yes - here's the result of the search:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i8cpy783d2b22jn/CYBDsearch.JPG

[Russ White]

Thats all as it should be, the 3 bgl files outside of the CYBD folder are part of the default CYBD update for the PFJ region and are suppressed by an exclude included with the CYBD airport addon. We know the exclude is working in your case else you would be seeing duplicated and offset buildings etc, so this is not the cause.

 

I can only help with CYBD, but you are experiencing this with other Orbx airports made by other developers, so there has to be a common factor at play here somewhere, but finding it is a tricky task! maybe one of the other developers has an idea which has not been explored yet?...

 

Russ

[macca22au]

Warmly suggest using the Nvidia Inspector setting for AA, 8xSGSS.

[rooby007]

Russ,

 

Would love to hear if any of the other developers have any ideas. Can you ask them to stop by?

 

 

Ian,

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I tried 8xSGSS, but unfortunately no improvement at all (plus my frame rate fell through the floor too)

[Jarrad Marshall]

G'day Andy,

 

Unfortunately this one has me stumped I'm afraid - as I said before I did have a good look into this issue specifically at Anacortes, however wasn't able to recreate the problem as you describe it. I can only suggest what has also already been suggested - use as low a zoom level as you are comfortable with, particularly in outside view where you seem to be having the most problems. I'm sorry that I don't have a more definitive fix for you, especially given that your setup came up clean with the the diagnostic points I suggested. 

 

Cheers,

Jarrad

[rooby007]

Hi guys.

 

Thanks for your efforts looking into this for me. I understand it's difficult when you can't replicate the problem on your own equipment. However to Jarrads point, I am ALREADY using the minimum level of zoom (0.3) and still getting a significant issue (see the video I posted).

 

As a result, I am left feeling less than satisfied. I have spent over £50 on airport add-ons which are not performing as well as the freeware - Bowerman - on which I based my purchase decision!!

 

I realise the level of detail on the payware airports is much higher (that's after all what we're seeking), and I am prepared to take a hit on frame rate but really not on image quality in the form of flickering. There also seems to be a wide variation in the severity of the isseue (non-existent at Bowerman and Milford Sound, quite bad at Anacortes and Orcas Island, and really bad at Bella Coola). I think a previous post suggested they are all built using differing techniques.

 

So, where do we go from here?

[svogeler]

Hi Andy,

 

since you have the flickering issue in specific view modes (e.g. external view) only, one thing you could try is the following:

- In the directory [user]\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\FSX look for the file Cameras.CFG

- Make a backup of this file

- Within the file, search for the word "Clipmode" in the camera section for external view

- If the corresponding line reads "Clipmode=Minimal" change it to "Clipmode=Normal"

- Save the file, restart FSX, and see if your flickering issue has gone - good luck! 

 

For me, this single line has solved severe runway texture flickering issues in virtual cockpit view.

 

Best Wishes,

Sven

 

[rooby007]

Hi Sven,

 

Thanks for taking the time to post...

 

I just tried a search of the camera.cfg file and there are no clipmode variables with a value of "minimal" or "normal". All mine are either "spot" or "normal".

 

Are you using EZDok Camera addon? 

[svogeler]

Hi Andy,

 

I had used EZDok Camera before, but then changed to Opus a few months ago. I suspect that one of these camera tools has tampered with my Clipmode attributes, however I am not sure about that. Have you tried to replace the parameter "spot" by "normal"?

 

If you google the words "microsoft camera clipmode" you will find a microsoft sdk page with a description for the Clipmode attribute.

 

Best Wishes,

Sven

 

EDIT: I have just seen your video and it looks exactly like the flickering runway issues I had in virtual cockpit view before I changed the Clipmode attribute - which cured the problem for me completely.

[rooby007]

Thanks - will check and report back

[rooby007]

Ok, so here's an update - after a complete re-install of EVERYTHING(!) - good and bad news.

 

- It appears that 'camera clipmode' is contributing to the phenomena of flickering Orbx runway textures.

- Where an aircraft camera clipmode is set to "minimal", it will in most cases cause severe flickering of runway textures

- Reducing zoom on the above helps a bit but not much

- Changing the clipmode to "normal" essentially eliminates flickering (other than for extreme levels of zoom)

 

Issue:

- Changing clipmode to minimal results in large portions of the aircraft being sliced off for any cameras located near the aircraft

- Fix is to move the camera away from the aircraft, but to get back to the original composition, higher zoom needs to be dialled in - with the result that the flickering returns!

 

I really thought I had solved this, but now not so sure. 

 

Any ideas where to go from here?

[Jarrad Marshall]

G'day Andy,

 

Glad to hear you are making progress. Given that you (with some gracious help from Sven) have managed to isolate the cause of your flicker issues to a combination of EZdok/FSX.cfg tweaks and not any problems with your ORBX airport installations, I'd suggest getting in touch with the EZdok developers over at their support forums; I'm sure they'll be able to help answer your question regarding this. 

 

Cheers,

Jarrad

[rooby007]

Jarrad,

 

I didn't say I'd isolated this to being an EZDok or CFG issue.

 

Having taken the time to re-install EVERYTHING, and having installed EZDok last, it is evident that the flickering exists with default FSX cameras.

 

It therefore seems there is an inherent root cause at play in the interaction between the addon Orbx airports and the FSX camera system in general.

 

Still seeking support...