This part of flying in PNW concerns me

[ba43]

After flying around mostly Southern Oregon so far as I make my way from one destination to the next. (Goal is to explore each PNW airstrip, field, airport, etc) I am concerned about something I'm seeing as I fly. Not the performance or quality of this amazing scenery product. That's been perfect so far.

My concern is the amount of logging and deforestation I'm seeing. It's like every mountain or hill and even in some valleys, have these patches of clear cut logging. I'm pretty sure that's what these are. I hope it's not but I fear that's the case. They are the open patches of land that are all over the landscape. 

Kind of sad and explains how bad it is. I know there are re-planting programs in place, but still, it's kind of scary now that I can fly over very accurate representation of this area. Sorry, just something I noticed.  :'(

Go ahead, insert the tree hugger comments here. I admit it. I love the forest. See the picture I took below.

Brad

[Patrick Scharnowski]

Yeah, that's one of the first things i've noticed when flying over the PNW scenery for the first time and I share your sentiment exactly. As beautiful as the area still is, it could be a lot more beautiful without the extensive logging and roads and powerlines cutting through the landscape everywhere, and the huge city areas of Vancouver, Seattle and Portland spreading out like a cancer. Well, that's mankind for you.  We usually don't know what we have until it's gone.

[Alcibiades]

Granted, all things should be done in moderation, but I make my living felling trees, and I see both sides of the coin. Trees are a resource to be used, though not abused.

In Stihl I trust! 

[DaveKDEN]

One thing to remember is the amount of re-forestation that's happening in the PNW (that's not really represented in a flight simulator add-on).  Certainly some of the logging practices of the past were somewhat irresponsible.  However, the logging industry has really changed how they do things, and re-forestation is a big part of the equation.  They realize that trees are a resource that's vital to their continued existence.  While it will take some time to make up for the mistakes of the past, there are positive steps that are being made.

[Nyxx]

Yeah, that's one of the first things i've noticed when flying over the PNW scenery for the first time and I share your sentiment exactly. As beautiful as the area still is, it could be a lot more beautiful without the extensive logging and roads and powerlines cutting through the landscape everywhere, and the huge city areas of Vancouver, Seattle and Portland spreading out like a cancer. Well, that's mankind for you.  We usually don't know what we have until it's gone.

+1

But mankind is the cancer of the plant, we consume everything .....well until nothing is left. Hell we have always tried to even kill each other over and over again. We are one truly F*&ked up race of mammals. But we "think" we are o so clever lol

[teecee]

I am not sure that what you are seeing in the screenie is clearfelling. It looks more like your settings are out somewhere. I may be wrong on this, but would like to see the co-ords of one of these areas, so that I can see if I am seeing them.. I have flown this area quite a lot, and never noticed the patches as you are seeing them. I sometime see patches of snow in the winter sceneries, but they are usually square. Teecee.

[Patrick Scharnowski]

I am not sure that what you are seeing in the screenie is clearfelling. It looks more like your settings are out somewhere.

Nope, what you are seeing there is correct. Not all clearcuts are square. I had to get used to that look as well, because these cutout block look a little strange when they have snow on them, but there is no display problem.

[Holger Sandmann]

Hi guys,

interesting discussion. If anything we underrepresent the amount of clearcut logging in the coverage area because we didn't have complete coverage of forest management databases. I remember that for Oregon we had about two thirds coverage and that already amounted to more than 50,000 cutblocks! Here's what a typical southern Oregon "working forest" looks like:

 

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/43%C2%B015'42.6%22N+123%C2%B038'20.8%22W/@43.2626674,-123.6138018,8753m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0?hl=en

 

(or copy& paste " 43°15'42.6"N 123°38'20.8"W " into the Google Maps or Bing Maps search window.)

 

Obviously, we don't have specific information on the status of regrowth for each cutblock. Thus, we used the year an area was cut to place each polygon into one of three classes - bare soil, seedlings, or young trees - and assign the appropriate custom ground texture and tree autogen. We also had three "generic" textures that show typical cutblocks in a forest matrix, which we placed in areas for which we didn't have cutblock polygons.

As a geographer and forest ecologist my pet peeve with the forest textures and land classes in FSX (and previous FS versions) has always been the absence of any sign of human activity. Just like with Tongass Fjords X and Vancouver+ our intent with FTX PNW was to provide a realistic representation of the diversity of the managed forests of the Pacific Northwest. Judging by the discussions here and elsewhere it seems we have done a decent job   

Cheers, Holger

[teecee]

Right, yep, just did a flight down Burlington Northern HW west of Bellingham.. Clearfelling all over the place.. now that really is sad. Teecee.

[jadeguy]

I have the same feeling flying over these clear cut areas- deep sadness. To see it on this scale is really mind boggling.The forests may take 100 years to grow back the way they were if that is even possible, probably not, because the ecosystem has been so radically changed. We need a certain amount of logging but much could be avoided if we used other sources to make paper etc. Unfortunately big business makes most of the decisions for us, not citizens or government. Not to knock people in the logging industry (except maybe the executives). There are many places where logging is the only thing people have as a means of support.

[drumsonly2002]

Because of the aggressive demand of wood resources, the acceleration of clear cutting, unless controlled,  PNW will be a historical representation  of what the forest use to looked like. I remember as a kid, seeing protesters hand cuffing themselves to very large trees, and police arresting them. I can imagine the damage must be far greater now.

  That being said, causes one to appreciate how a sim can bring enjoyment into flying over locations one has no time to visit. When

I get the computer geared up, PNW in my next Orbx purchase.

[Holger Sandmann]

Me again,

actually, forest management practices have changed a lot in the past 10-15 years towards becoming more sustainable. Moreover, the wise people of the Pacific Northwest decided to set aside large areas of land for conservation, more than in most other jurisdictions on the planet.

For example, on a 100-mile trek along the Pacific Crest Trail in the Glacier Peak Wilderness Area I didn't see a single clearcut, house, or road during my eight days of hiking. Try that in Europe or elsewhere 

Cheers, Holger

[jadeguy]

Holger,

You have accomplished much more than a decent job- an incredible job!! The depth of PNW is staggering and I can't really comprehend how the team has done it!

This passion of flying is so many things but the most powerful of all is emotion, and PNW (OK,mixed with REX) is an emotional experience! Simply awesome work, thanks for the ....experience of PNW!

[Phil Manhart]

Another thing that the clear cut areas in FSX can't represent is the fact that they don't just take the trees and move to the next area. I know this because I live here.

Every single one of those areas have trees growing that have been planted to replace the taken trees. Some of the areas would have larger trees than the other. Again, it would be extremely difficult (and CPU taxing), for the FTX team to represent this.

Also, like Holger stated above, most of the Western Olympic Range is a protected rainforest that you cannot touch.

All in all, it may be uglier than it used to be, but it is being done responsibly (by replanting), and without the wood, we would not be able to afford the houses to live in unless they were made out of mud bricks (which would NOT survive even one month of the rainy season here!)

[macca22au]

As a geographer and environmental manager I seem to have a background a little like you Holger. 

In the last few years in the State of Victoria I constantly queried public sector forest managers and loggers as to why we still need clear felling.  Why not snig out the big trees? 

Regrettably most of the trees in our country still go to wood chips, and even for building timber, the individual tree approach is too expensive.

The claim is the coupes are spaced, the cleared areas immediately replanted, and the growing trees absorb more CO2.  I am always surprised just how adamant people can be about how environmental degradation is beneficial!  However we too have very large areas of conservation forests, that are untouched though not without controversey in relation to bushfire.

[jjjallen]

It took me a minute to figure that out also as I lived in Idaho for 4 years at Mountain Home AFB.  The BLM (Bureau of Land Management) ruled the kingdom then and still may.

jja

[fltsimguy]

Cheers Holger!  What and incredible discussion.  Flightsim members actually voicing opinion and concern regarding forestry practices, brought on by a flightsim product which bare none is the best scenery product ever produced.

As a professional forester in Duncan BC, Vancouver Island I have been involved in forest land managment for 36 years and can safely advise you all that where timber harveseting and forest managment are taking place the standard has never been better and in many ways it is far superior to other landscapes on this planet.  The PNW deals with vast landscapes from which other folks on this planet demand forest products and at the same time want those landscapes to be available for recreation, spiritual renewal, view scapes and a myriad of other "uses".  Vast lands are now set aside for protection and conservation and the work is ongoing to address local issues in this regard.

Rest assured those of us in BC Canada are living up to the highest standard of forest land management.  Perhaps you managed to catch some of the Olympics this year, did you notice anything in the background?  Spectacular scenery, extremely well managed.

[spud]

Growing up in northern Idaho in a logging community I was exposed most of my formative years to the timber industry and the practices in the late 40's early 50's.  At the time clear cutting was not as common as practiced today.  We had two major companies, Diamond Match and Potlatch (Weyhauser) logging and the former did selective cutting and Potlatch was more prone to clear cutting.  Although selective cutting left trees standing the landscape was pretty well torn up by skid roads after an area was finished.  In those days clean up consisted of throwing the saw in the back of the pickup and moving to the next ridge.  Today there is a sharp swing to sustainability but a clear cut is still ugly to look at and of course game avoid them where ever possible.

A statistic that might seem rather strange at first is that its actually the southeastern U.S. that produces 60% of harvested timber but down here tree farms are old news and logs are puny compared to the Doug Fir from the PNW.

Just about all my family depends on forest work for a living and I know that while it might look ugly and wasteful, clear cutting is the method that works best if not the best looking.

[Flying Monkey]

So that's what all these patches are... Yesterday I flew towards the north from CAP3, and looking at all these patches I was wondering whether something had gone wrong with my PNW install.

I also noticed the huge amount of power lines (I'll go back tweaking the terrain.cfg because the texture strip is too wide for my taste) while flying in the valley.

But then again, I grew up in Europe, and go and see the alps... You're lucky if you see a cleared patch in a big forest, because usually what you'll see will be more like a small patch of forest in giant cleared space...

[HiFlyer]

Wow. Looks like we have managed to give the earth a bad case of the mange!

[Mike Johnson]

Good discussion on forest management practices in the PNW. 

But another comment was made about urban sprawl.  Portland has had an Urban Growth Boundry for going on 80 years.  The tri-county area around Portland is ringed with a boundry that is reviewed every few years.  Outside the boundry suburban type development is prohibited.  Modifying the boundry is a project completed with lots of citizen input and review.  The new boundry was just completed after several years of work by professional planners, developers, and citizen input.  Both people who work the land for a living and people like me wanting to retire on a nice multi acre property.  As you can expect...there was a lot of give and take to come to consenses.

Oregon, Washington and British Columbia are very eco sensitive and have been for a very long time.  I would not be surprised to find out that tree hugging was invented here.  And if you don't think that loggers are tree huggers/lovers...you should talk to one some day.  Just don't accuse them of it.  They get testy.

[Darryl]

Yeah, that's one of the first things i've noticed when flying over the PNW scenery for the first time and I share your sentiment exactly. As beautiful as the area still is, it could be a lot more beautiful without the extensive logging and roads and powerlines cutting through the landscape everywhere, and the huge city areas of Vancouver, Seattle and Portland spreading out like a cancer. Well, that's mankind for you.  We usually don't know what we have until it's gone.

+1

But mankind is the cancer of the plant, we consume everything .....well until nothing is left. Hell we have always tried to even kill each other over and over again. We are one truly F*&ked up race of mammals. But we "think" we are o so clever lol

May as well enjoy our easy lifestyle now and let the future generations worry about what we did. Thats hurry for now the hell with later  right?

[Wildbird]

Interesting topic indeed. Sometimes when they're clear cutting around here they leave some trees standing, not sure if it is to make the field look not so empty, but it sure is an odd sight to see a large empty field with a couple of trees alone in the middle of it. And these trees have been growing in a tight forests so they typically have no branches before 7-8 meters above ground. Not exactly pretty looking trees.

What surprises me is that it's possible to make money flying logs out of the forest by helicopter. Seriously large helicopters too.

[Gary D]

I live here in the PNW  and have flown much of Washington and some of Oregon ..each time I would go to area  that I had not  been maybe for a year or so and saw this type of logging it makes me sad .. and even driving down some of the scenic hwys  you see this strip logging .... as I said in my very first post after my first flight the People at  Voz showed it as it really is and didnt pull any punches...I wish that my children and grand children could have seen this scenery back in the 70s when I took my very first solo flight