answered Boulder Municipal airport

[Jon Clarke]

Unsure where to post this as it involves NA OLC and Vector and P3D.

If I choose Boulder Mun(Colorado) in P3D it is labelled as icao 1V5, but googling shows another 2 icaos, KBDU and KBVU. In P3D it sits on a plateau that is not too intrusive but there is no Vector AEC for either 1v5, KBDU nor KBVF.

Any ideas?

[Stewart Hobson]

Hi, jjaycee1.  I landed there at Boulder Muni yesterday after a rather complete circuit of Denver and its environs, looking for autogen problems.  Didn't find any.  Noticed the GTN750 identified Boulder Muni as KBDU, but FSX lists it as 1V5.  As for the plateau effect, I think this another case of our mesh not reflecting the same resolution as is assumed by OLC NA, thus the plateau.  I've found this to be the case for several airport/airfields around the US and it's not consistent.  Most airports are ok, some are not.  Vector AEC is of no use in these circumstances because it's not an elevation issue per se, but a mesh issue.  If your mesh is not of the same resolution for that airport as is assumed by OLC NA (maybe the default resolution or Pilots Global 2010?) then you get plateaus.  I gave up long ago trying to fix the plateaus, it just wasn't worth it.  I'm using Pilot's Ultimate Americas mesh, but I'm thinking maybe Pilot's Global 2010 might be a viable alternative, since the Orbx devs all use Global 2010 as their mesh, and then that might take care of the plateaus.  Would be interested in your take on this mesh situation.

 

Edit to add:  Just to clarify, I don't necessarily have elevation issues at the airports which exhibit problems.  The so-called "plateaus" I don't consider to be elevation problems, since using the AEC tool to "correct" them only results in something worse, therefore my characterization of those plateau problems as being a mesh problem, not an elevation problem.  I am starting to suspect, as I stated above, that using the Global 2010 mesh will perhaps remedy the problems with plateaus, apparently introduced by the release of Open LC NA.

[Nick Cooper]

I don't see an elevation problem here at all.

OpenLC does not affect airport elevations.

FSX, Vector, OpenLC NA, Global 2010 mesh.

 

[Stewart Hobson]

Hi, Nick, and thanks for your input.  I'm well aware that OLC NA does not affect airport elevations.  And your right, there is no elevation problem here.  But, Nick, you are using Global 2010 mesh.  I am not (Global Ultimate), so Boulder Muni sits on a slight plateau, not unsightly but a plateau nonetheless.  As I have noted previously, I don't consider this an elevation problem, solvable with Vector AEC, but a mesh problem brought about by my using a different mesh than was used as a basis for developing OLC NA, i.e., Global 2010.

[Jon Clarke]

Thanks to all. I have a post asking the question regarding Ultimate's compatibility with Vector and whether to remove mesh/elevation issues, would I be better off with Global 2010. It looks like Nick, and a couple of others, has confirmed this.

Still on the topic of mesh then, I am slightly confused regarding the P3D & FSX settings option in Scenery and the Mesh slider. If for example 5m is the default orbx setting using 2010 mesh in their products then of what use is the mesh slider if I too set it to 5m. It would appear that this slider does not restrict my possibly higher definition Ultimate mesh to 5m but the sim chooses the highest resolution available which maybe for example 2m. The result would be these mesh plateaus. I would like clarification if possible on this "theory".

I am loathed to have wasted 120 euros on highly detailed mesh that is not compatible ( another post I wrote to Richard Lincoln asking for clarification if Ultimate was compatible with Vector and pointing out to him that there is no mention anywhere in PILOTS of it not being compatible), plus probably spending more money to buy 2010 as a replacement, but I may have to since these plateaus are a real bug to me.

Regarding Boulder Muni KBDU, I am surprised at it's lack of proper inclusion in any of the related addons I have. It does not appear in MT6 in any icao option either.

[Stewart Hobson]

jjaycee,  My GTN750 identifies Boulder Muni as KBDU.  Plan-G, and to the best of my recollection, FSX, does not.

 

And again, I don't believe it's a matter of Ultimate being compatible or not with Vector, but rather having to do with the finer resolution of Ultimate at certain airports (KBDU being one of several) being different from that of Global 2010, the mesh used by the Orbx developers.  If this is indeed a factor, then it would seem prudent, in order to eliminate these random plateaus from appearing, to invest in the Global 2010 mesh, though, like you, I am very reluctant to do so after having invested several US$$ in Ultimate.

 

Also, I would also be interested in any clarification of your "theory" about the 5m mesh setting for Orbx products, viz-a-viz Ultimate's possibly higher resolution.

[Nick Cooper]

I do not know the definitive answer but I suspect that if you set the mesh resolution to 5 m, then that is the best that you will see.

I would draw a parallel with textures, setting the maximum resolution to 1024 does mean that textures will only be displayed at

a maximum of1024, regardless of their original resolution if higher than that.

 

I think that there will always be a trade off between more detailed terrain which is desirable and the inevitable cliffs around flat

airports which is not.

I do not subscribe to the elevation tools which I have tried because they (it) seem to flatten the interesting features around the airport

just to make it fit, often with a negative effect on the surrounding terrain.

The ideal solution is the use of sloping flattens and/or models to blend the airport with the surrounding terrain but even then, the FSX and P3D

flat runway takes away from the desired effect.

 

[spud]

My setup in FSX:

 

GLOBAL
FTX Global Base Pack FTX GLOBAL BASE PACK - Version 1.40 September 2015
FTX Global openLC Europe FTX openLC Europe Version 1.20 - September 2015
FTX Global openLC North America FTX openLC North America Version 1.15 - August 2016
FTX Global Vector FTX GLOBAL VECTOR PACK - Version 1.45 August 2016

REGION
Australia FTX AUSTRALIA SP4.003 - NOVEMBER 2013
Central Rockies FTX NA CRM Central Rocky Mountains V1.00 Patch 005 November 2015
New Zealand North Island FTX NZ NZNI New Zealand North Island V1.1 PATCH 001 September 2014
New Zealand South Island FTX NZ NZSI New Zealand South Island V1.3 PATCH 003 July 2014
Northern California FTX NA NCA Northern California V1.20 Patch 002 November 2015
Northern Rockies FTX NA NRM Northern Rocky Mountains V1 PATCH 005 December 2015
Norway FTX EU NOR Norway V1.10 Patch 001 April 2015
Pacific Fjords FTX NA PFJ Pacific Fjords V1.1 Patch 004 April 2014
Pacific Northwest FTX NA PNW PACIFIC NORTHWEST V1.0 PATCH 008 February 2014
Southern Alaska FTX NA SAK Southern Alaska and YT/BC V1 Patch 005 December 2015
Southern California FTX NA SCA Southern California V1.00 December 2015

AIRPORT
2S1 FTX US 2S1 VASHON ISLAND VERSION 1.2 - Feb 2012
7WA3 FTX NA 7WA3 West Wind Airfield Version 1.00
CAC8 FTX CA ORBX CAC8 NANAIMO WATER AERODROME VER 1.00  JUNE 2016
CEJ4 FTX CAN CEJ4 CLARESHOLM INDUSTRIAL VERSION 2.00
CEN4 FTX CAN CEN4 HIGH RIVER REGIONAL AIRPORT VERSION 2.10
EDBH FTX GLOBAL EDBH BARTH AIRPORT VERSION 1.10 - February 2014
EDCG FTX GLOBAL EDCG RUGEN AIRPORT VERSION 1.00 - May 2014
EDVR FTX GLOBAL EDVR RINTELN AIRPORT VERSION 1.00 - October 2014
ENJA FTX EU ENJA JAN MAYENSFIELD AIRPORT VERSION 1.10 DECEMBER 2015
EO49 FTX GLOBAL EO49 LAUFENSELDEN AIRPORT Version 1.00 - July 2014
KHQM FTX NA KHQM BOWERMAN AIRPORT VERSION 1.1
KSFF FTX US KSFF Felts Field Spokane 1.00 - 27th November 2012
LIDA FTX EU LIDA ASIAGO AIRPORT VERSION 1.10 MARCH 2016
TAP FTX PNG TAP Tapini Airport Version 1.0 March 2016
YBLN FTX AU YBLN BUSSELTON AIRPORT VERSION 1.5 (SP3) October2009
YCUN FTX AU YCUN CUNDERDIN AIRPORT VERSION 1.5 (SP3) October 2009
YLIL FTX AU YLIL LILYDALE AIRPORT VERSION 2.0 (SP3) January 2013
YMLT FTX AU YMLT VERSION 2.5 (SP3) October2009
YMUI FTX AU YMUI Murray Island V1.0
YPLC FTX AU YPLC PORT LINCOLN AIRPORT VERSION 1.5 (SP3) October 2009
YRED FTX AU YRED REDCLIFFE AIRPORT VERSION 3.0 (SP3) October 2009

OTHER
AU Holgermesh FTX AU HOLGERMESH V1.0 (SP3)
Europe Freeware Packs FTX GLOBAL FREEWARE AIRPORTS EUROPE PACKS 1 to 8 - March 2015
FTX Trees HD FTX TREES HD VERSION 1.00 APRIL 2015
Monument Valley FTX US MONUMENT VALLEY VERSION 1.10 - April 2015
North America Freeware Packs FTX Global Freeware Airports North & South America - July 2016
Orbx Libraries FTX AA ORBX Libraries Version 160708 8th July 2016
PNG Holgermesh FTX PNG HOLGERMESH V1.0
Portland City FTX NA KPDX CITYSCAPE VERSION 1.10 August 2014
USDT Devils Tower FTX US DEVILS TOWER VERSION 1.00 - April 2015
Yosemite National Park FTX US YOSEMITE VALLEY VERSION 1.00 - September 2014

UNCATEGORISED
FTX_OLC_AA FTX openLC Base Region Version 1.10 - September 2013
FTX_OLC_EU1 FTX openLC Europe Region 1 (Baltics Demo) Version 1.10 - September 2013
FTX_OLC_NA1 FTX openLC North America Region 1 Version 1.00 - September 2013

 

My Boulder, CO 1V5 screen shot.  No plateaus or other anomalies.  Must be an exclusivly P3D problem. at the airport.

 

 

FWIW Airnav.com lists Boulder FAA Identifier as BDU.

 

[Stewart Hobson]

Spud, I'm running FSX.  Also, you don't state which mesh you have installed, which I think is crucial to this situation.  And I'm not sure why you listed all your sceneries.

[spud]

Stew,

just listed everything listed in the "Installed ORBX Products" table, (lazyman's way) thinking it also listed the Pilots 2010 FTX Compatible MESH I have installed.  I notice now that although Holger's MESHES are listed the Pilots MESH is not.  BTW its set to 5M in the sim per ORBX recommendations.

 

[Stewart Hobson]

22 minutes ago, spud said:

Stew,

just listed everything listed in the "Installed ORBX Products" table, (lazyman's way) thinking it also listed the Pilots 2010 FTX Compatible MESH I have installed.  I notice now that although Holger's MESHES are listed the Pilots MESH is not.

That mesh issue is what seems to make the difference at Boulder Muni, at least.  I note that Nick also has installed the 2010 Compatible mesh and doesn't see any plateau either.  So as I have stated above, the issue jjaycee1 is addressing is not so much is Pilot's Ultimate Mesh, which both he and I have installed, compatible with Vector, as much as is there a problem in some areas (not all) of OpenLC NA brought about by the devs using the 2010 FTX Compatible mesh as the standard, as opposed to others of us who are using Ultimate?  I'm inclined to think the answer is "Yes, probably."

[CaptKornDog]

For what it's worth, 1V5 was Boulder's former identifier.  It is currently KBDU.

[Jon Clarke]

@Stewart Hobson I maybe using the word "compatible" rather loosely. 2010 is clearly labelled as Compatible with Vector and Ultimate does not mention that. By compatible I mean that airport elevations are in accordance with the data integrated within Vector and any anomalies should be rectified by using the Vector AEC. The results of this are that many users of 2010 with Vector do not see, or can rectify any elevation errors, NA OLC only really added the info to the sim of where to place the correct landclass features of buildings and vegetation on top of the Global and Vector data on top of pre-existing elevation levels based on 2010.

In my view, based on my interpretation above of "Compatibility" it appears that Ultimate is not compatible due to the elevation data in Ultimate being more detailed and in many areas of a higher resolution than 2010. Hence elevation (mesh in your words) anomalies can and do occur.

What I am looking for is clarification from Pilots as to whether or not Ultimate is as compatible with Vector as 2010 is labelled as being. If not then are there ways of rectifying elevation/mesh anomalies using for example the AFM files instead of the Vector AEC or in conjunction with AEC or don't use AEC at all etc.

 

[Stewart Hobson]

@jjaycee1 Thanks for your reply.  I don't think the two mesh products in question have any airport elevation data at all.  I could be wrong, but that isn't their purpose, is it?  The elevation data is a part of the sim and if Vector agrees with that data, then there is no elevation correction to be made.  So, I prefer not to think of elevation differences and mesh differences as the same thing.  The difference between airport elevations in Vector and those in the sim are remedied by the AEC tool.  That is, after all, the function of the AEC tool, to resolve those elevation differences.   But as we can see with Boulder Muni, for example, the plateau you and I can see at that airport is not remedied by using Vector's AEC tool.  The reason is because Vector's airport elevation data agrees with that used in the sim.  So, it's not an elevation "anomaly", but most certainly an anomaly caused by Ultimate mesh being more precise (or maybe less so) in this case than Global 2010.  Like yourself, I would be interested to see if there are any remedies to the plateaus we see when using Ultimate, or whether we have to be content with the fact that the plateaus are there and there's nothing to be done about them.

[Jon Clarke]

Good explanation Stewart and understood. Many thanks.

[Stewart Hobson]

4 hours ago, jjaycee1 said:

Good explanation Stewart and understood. Many thanks.

I'll be waiting along with yourself for any possible input from Pilot's.  In the meantime, I'll tolerate the plateaus--they're not that intrusive anyway.