ACTIVE Reply to JV's post in the now locked thread..

[fjacobsen]

Just to answer the locked thread: http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/70640-mesh-clarification/?p=649871

 

 

John Venema..

 

If You read Your own FTX Global Vectors User guide:

 

Vector does not include any terrain mesh files. Mesh is used to provide the definition of mountains and
undulating terrain so the smaller the distance between each mesh point (the resolution), the better defined
these features look in the simulator. We recommend you check the compatibility forum in the link above or
the FTX forums to research what the best terrain mesh product is for Vector.
Orbx has also partnered with PILOT’s who have released a download version of their worldwide FSGlobal2010
Mesh product, called the “FTX Editionâ€. This is the mesh product Orbx beta testers used when testing Vector
and although it is not required or mandatory, it’s a quick solution to provide a worldwide mesh which you can
purchase and download from the flightsimstore.com – this is a ~24GB download though so be aware that’s a
lot of data!

 

You must honstly admit that it expledict tell that a 3rd party mesh addon is not required.

 

Whether the serious flightsimmer should install such a 3rd party mesh addon is not up to anyone else as the simmer himself to decide and certainly not a mesure of wheter he is serious or not.

For those who mostly fly airliners at 36.000 ft accurate mesh is not as important as for those flying nap of the earth over mountains or hilly scenery.

 

For me some communication has been lost between PILOT´s developers and ORBX/FTX.

 

I was at no point in doubt that FTX Global Base was required for FTX Global Vector, but no where on any Orbx or Flightsim Store was it mentioned that FS Global 2010 or any other 3rd party mesh was required.

 

To lock a thread with a sour "Please give us all a break and stop with this nonsense, we're tiring of it." is not a fair way to treat paying loyal customers.

 

I have PNW, NRM, CRM, PFJ, SAK, NZSI, NZNI as well as 24 Orbx Airfields/Airports. I am a happy owner of FTX Global Base too, but the release of Vectors and troubles we see now are not the cause of dumb or stupid customers who cannot read or understand what the whole thing is about.

 

Problem is that the customers didn´t get the right information before buying. Making the manual for Vectors accesable before buying did not tell the truth either.

 

For me it´s not the customers who simply need to fix Vectors by buying yet another expensive addon, but rather Orbx/Pilot´s who needs to come up with a workable solution.

So either customers should get acces to a real cheap offer for FS Global 2010, or they should be given the option to get a refund.

 

Order Number: FSS0256755

 

FJ

[KSandleben]

 

I have PNW, NRM, CRM, PFJ, SAK, NZSI, NZNI as well as 24 Orbx Airfields/Airports. I am a happy owner of FTX Global Base too, but the release of Vectors and troubles we see now are not the cause of dumb or stupid customers who cannot read or understand what the whole thing is about.

 

 

If that is the case then why are there no order numbers for those listed in your signature?

[fjacobsen]

Here we go...

 

Sorry if some freeware Orbx airfields was included in my count, but I still regard myself as one of the good customers:

 

FTX Global base: FSS0224787
FTX Global Vector: FSS0256755

PFJ: FSS0084347
PNW: FSS0098166
NRM: FSS0098470
CRM: FSS0121632
NZSI: FSS0142403
NZNI: FSS0175270
SAK: FSS0206604

7S3: FSS0098249
KORS: FSS0101893
1S2+3W5: FSS0104343
KCMW: FSS0108734
2WA1: FSS0122637
1WA6: FSS0126645
KBVS: FSS0131842
74S: FSS0133201
W52: FSS0138757
PAKT: FSS0142716
0S9: FSS0143420
S43: FSS0144039
2W3: FSS0156845
CZST: FSS0165851
KJAC: FSS0170214

Lancair IV-P: FSS0099022

[GlennH]

If that is the case then why are there no order numbers for those listed in your signature?

Its only required to have the most recent order number.

[fjacobsen]

KSandleben asked for prove of the other orders, so here they are

 

FJ

[Andyphone]

John got angry, that I can understand because not all complaints are the same or make sense. Anyway I think he missed the main point: if Vector will only work at say 90% (?) of its potential or even give some problems (!) without any good mesh installed that was to be written clear and simple as possible in the product description (not in the manual guide or elsewhere), not all people read the forums, the explanations, not all people buy many add-ons for FSX, not all people are the same.

 

John got angry, but I am sure he will learn for the future 

 

Ciao

[Astarot]

If i ever saw an example of how NOT to treat customers, this is it. Well. I'm out of here.

[JRBarrett]

@fjacobsen

I have to respectfully disagree. Add on mesh is NOT "required" for VECTOR. It will install, and run on any FSX installation whether enhanced mesh is present or not. BUT, to get the best results, an add-on SRTM-based mesh is recommended.

To my mind, when something is "required", it means that it MUST be present, or the product will not work at all. A good example is the .NET 4.0 runtime. If you don't have that, many installers won't run, (including those for ORBX FTX). Another example would be various PMDG aircraft which depend on very specific versions of the MSVC runtime files to be present on a FSX computer. Without them, the PMDG aircraft will either crash outright, or will display unexpected or unpredictable behavior.

I've been reading these forums since the first announcement of VECTOR by JV and PILOTS back in September. It has always been clear to me, right from the first, that an enhanced terrain mesh product would give "best results" with VECTOR. (And it does NOT have to be Global 2010 or Ultimate. FSGenesis mesh works well, as do many freeware meshes)

JV has been stating this right from the beginning, as does the users's guide posted pre-release. Enhanced mesh is not REQUIRED, but it does make the product look better in most places. The decision is left to the end-user.

I never gave it much thought one way or another, as I already have worldwide enhanced mesh, and have had for over two years. My problem was just the opposite... I have had many many airports perched on plateaus since installing FS Global Ultimate - a "known" issue due to conflicts between the accurate enhanced mesh, an INaccurate default FSX airport elevations. I had assumed that VECTOR would automatically fix this. (It didn't)

Apparently the airport elevation corrections did not make it into the final release of VECTOR v 1.0, but will be coming in the first patch.

[Andyphone]

@fjacobsen

I have to respectfully disagree. Add on mesh is NOT "required" for VECTOR. It will install, and run on any FSX installation whether enhanced mesh is present or not. BUT, to get the best results, an add-on SRTM-based mesh is recommended.

 

 

Not "to get the best results" but to not get into big problems at different locations it seems by what is being reported on here from people without a good mesh installed. Unless something needs to be fixed or was not ready with the product.

 

Ciao

[Ripcord]

Another point that JV made was the Iceland demo. If I recall correctly, they DID provide the mesh as part of the download. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong. That might have been a mistake in hindsight, even though it was stated that the mesh would NOT be part of Vector (sold separately).

I don't feel a ton of remorse for those that have no payware mesh at all -- it was discussed, and they still have the option to disable the AEC folder in their scenery files.

It gets a bit trickier for the FS Genesis crowd. I do remember multiple occasions where folks asked about FS Genesis, and we were all told that it would work fine with that. However the two sets of mesh/terrain data (FS Global and FS Genesis) are not 100% the same everywhere, and so it is unavoidable that some airport elevation discrepancies will occur, in some areas.

John's response was clearly inappropriate, and I think given a day or two to reflect and have a beer and calm down a bit, he will agree to that himself. Customer Relations 101 is taught differently here I live.

In his defense, there has been a great deal of piling on here. Let's all get off our 'customer is always right' podiums and quit hitting John in the face with this. Instead let's provide objective issues and step back and trust him/allow him to craft some better solutions.

[darem]

It gets a bit trickier for the FS Genesis crowd. I do remember multiple occasions where folks asked about FS Genesis, and we were all told that it would work fine with that. However the two sets of mesh/terrain data (FS Global and FS Genesis) are not 100% the same everywhere, and so it is unavoidable that some airport elevation discrepancies will occur, in some areas.

 

And disabling the AEC folder does NOT help in that situation... (

[Piper9t3]

Well I have default FSX mesh and bought and installed Vector. I have been contemplating payware mesh for a while now and seeing that FSGlobal 2010 is optimized for Vector I purchased it from FSS today in hopes that my virtual world will vastly improve with less errors.

I do believe that those complaining about mesh did not realize that upgraded/accurate mesh elevations is a

pre-requisite for properly rendering accurate Vector data (myself included). Perhaps maybe it could of been explained in more detail prior to Vector release or even better FSGlobal 2010 packaged together with Vector and priced accordingly I think would of been the best option. Nevertheless, invest in upgraded mesh like I did and with the progressive patches in the works for Vector, together with FTX Global and the future openLC's, the FS world will truly come to life!

Looking forward to the New Year 2014!!

[wolfko]

FJ, either you really do not understand or refuse to understand the sense of the sentences you have quoted bold in red and blue. This Quote does NOT mean that mesh is not required or mandatory in general. It only means that  the certain "FSGlobal2010 Mesh FTX Edition" is neither required or mandatory. So please do not misinterpret things to suit your books.

 

Cheers, Wolfgang

[fjacobsen]

FJ, either you really do not understand or refuse to understand the sense of the sentences you have quoted bold in red and blue. This Quote does NOT mean that mesh is not required or mandatory in general. It only means that  the certain "FSGlobal2010 Mesh FTX Edition" is neither required or mandatory. So please do not misinterpret things to suit your books.

 

Cheers, Wolfgang

 

Well thats tactually the entire issue here...

 

The manual states that any 3rd party Mesh isn´t required, but both Stefan and John now tells the opposite.

 

While I now see the importance of acurate mesh for the Vector stuff, they didn´t tell in the release announcement, User guide or Product page that a 3rd party mesh addon is needed.

Just like they have told that FTX Global Base is required, they should also have told that a 3rd party mesh is needed for FTX Global Vector to be drawn correctly in FSX.

If the Airport mesh correction part only works for 3rd party Mesh addons, then there should have been an ption in the insattler to install without those corrections or a configtool should have been supplied to toggle the corrections on/off.

 

On top of the mesh issue I also think it´s fair to say that the release seems a bit rushed. I´m fully ware that with a product that spans the entire world, bugs must be expected. I´m also confident that most of these bugs will be fixed. Histore of Orbx and also Pilot´s has shown that this is the case. But alot of the issues have been found at places that should have been caught in beta testing, like San Fransisco, London, Hamburg, Detroit, New York etc..

I´m not the one who complain about beeing used as beta tester, cause I know that the complexity of software toay is at a level where bugs will be present at release, despit how many hours of beta testing has been done.

 

I would not keep stirring the pot here if someone from PILOT`s or Orbx would announce that they look into it and tries to find a solution, but up to now we only got words from Stefan (PILOT`s) that a 3rd party mesh IS required and a rather bitter reply from John Venema calling our complaints BS and whining. Instead of getting into a sober discussion about how to resolve the problems that many flightsimmers  have (even seasoned flightsimmers), John opted to cut the channel by locking the thread.

 

What I ask for is that we either can get a refund, due to the misinformation about the requirements for FTX Global Vectors, or a cheap offer for the required mesh addon.

 

I alwasy likes Orbx products as You can see in my signature. FTX Global Base has really enhanced FSX and P3DV2 for me, so has all the regions and airfields. I was never in doubt with the quality of Orbx products, thats also why it hurts me alot to see how this release has been handled.

 

I will keep from posting here for some days until things has cooled of and then re-check what Orbx/Pilot´s come up with.

 

I do recon that I have been among the whiners and that keep whining doesn´t help the process, but I also find that alot of BS posts and whining could have been prevented by a rather more mature approach from Orbx' side.

 

All we actually are asking for is a fair solution.

 

FJ

[jaseman007]

This has been a massive learning curve for me and others. The good thing about this is that ORBX always come through with fixes and their support is first rate. JV has had his say in his JV style but you know what? He always pulls through with the fixes. That's why I purchase their work.

I have only come across the duplicate bridge issue so far and was peeved when I saw it however Bernd is all over it like moles on grandma. It will be fixed. It's only just been released so just take some deep breathes, report your issues and lets get flyin!

Happy flights everyone.

[Wolter van der Spoel]

please be so kind and READ what it says in this post from july 2013 => http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/61929-ftx-global-what-is-it-all-about/#entry565142

 

it states very clearly as to how the layers within fsX are built up and how things work together

[Steve 1960]

I bought Vector on it's release day, it cost me just £35 -- a bargain, thanks to the Global-owner discount and a buoyant UK pound!! Two days of flying and I haven't seen a single problem --- but nor have I gone looking for any! I am happy to enjoy what is here, and what is here is, let's be honest, far better than what I had before -- well worth Â£35 for sure

 

And I am happy knowing that where odd problems do exist they will be dealt with in time by the FTX/ORBX team.

 

It's a huge ask, re-creating our large and rather complex world, and I for one thank JV and his team for breathing fresh life into my personal flight-simming experience. Since discovering their products only a couple of months ago, I've probably spent less than £200, probably about the same amount as I would no doubt have had to pay Microsoft for successive FS products had they stayed in the game.

 

Today, I am enjoying a standard of realism that more than meets my expectations, with support and ample fixes regularly available, and future developments to look forward to .... And there are also the fantastic free airports packs and AI traffic that all help to add another dimension to my hobby -- thank you guys!! 

 

Mesh? For now I use the default FSX, and I am aware that I can probably fly across 90% of the globe with no issues ... I'm no technical whizz, but I did pick up on what was being said in the run up to vector -- that it was always going to work that little bit better with a higher quality of mesh! If in the future, I decide it is imperative for me to fly in any regions where the mesh issue becomes a real problem, then I'll take the advice given and invest in the mesh product.

 

To me, it's all a question of context and expectations -- for £35, I wouldn't have expected a flawless "real world" in my cozy little living room, but I am certainly very impressed with what the product gives me -- after all, it's just a hobby, not a life or death situation.... or am I missing something?

 

Thank you JV, and all your team, for what we have now, and what is still to come. If it wasn't for your products, I highly doubt I would still be using FSX at all.

Best regards, Angus

[gsnde]

Its only required to have the most recent order number.

 

I guess it does not hurt to hijack this shortly for something I am really interested in. Since I became an OrbX customer I am laughing about this order number thing. I have never seen such a variety of different formated and colored order numbers anywhere else before. Is there a description somewhere that explains what to provide and how? Glenn says only the most recent order number is required, but I would expect one of the forum crusaders will be on your neck the instant you ask a question about a product that you don't have included in your signature.

[alcliff]

Wolter - please be so kind and READ what it says at flightsimstore.com. It states very clearly that - "FTX Global VECTOR is designed for FTX Global BASE and requires that product to be installed also."

http://www.flightsimstore.com/product_info.php?products_id=2712

 

Not a single word about that Vector also is designed for a unique mesh (instead of the default mesh).

 

Bernd Podhradsky said: - "Lakes in FSX are - by design - on a fixed elevation (and they are flat). Of course, we use real-world elevations where possible, so if your mesh is way off, the lake could be on a plateau. Same applies to airports."

 

As a customer - where could I see this - "Of course, we use" - advertised before I bought VECTOR?

 

Bernd Podhradsky said: - "We decided to use accurate elevation sources to determine them. We certainly couldn't make VECTOR for all possible mesh add-on combinations. Remember that it's not only a question of 'default mesh or add-on mesh': it's much more complicated, because users could have mesh-add ons for certain areas and default mesh for others. Default FSX mesh quality varies greatly between different areas, which is why the problems with VECTOR will not be everywhere."

 

I understand it is desirable to have a common standard mesh. So do I. But as a customer - where could I see this decision advertised before I bought VECTOR?

 

Is it true that FS Genesis, FS Global 2008/2010/Ultimate are all 100% compatible with VECTOR? Or is "FS Global 2010 FTX" slightly better than all the others?

 

I ask because Bernd Podhradsky said - "We certainly couldn't make VECTOR for all possible mesh add-on combinations."

 

All the Best,

[John Venema]

Beating a dead horse here guys. Go get yourself a mesh product and sim happy

 

Locked.