ANSWERED Elevation issues? Why! Vector should not have Mesh!

[cvearl]

Did Vector change the mesh? I did not have these elevation issues in the places I see them now prior to Vector install. How does that work? They were not there in default FSX and not after FTX Global as far as I can remember. NJ Flood plains actually is the only place that comes immediately to my mind.

 

Wierd.

 

Charles.

[Bernd Podhradsky]

Which elevation issues do you mean? VECTOR doesn't change mesh in FSX at all!

 

Bernd

[Andyphone]

Does not change the mesh but changes elevations for some airport and locations, did I understand this correctly?

 

Ciao

[Bernd Podhradsky]

Hi!

 

Lakes in FSX are - by design - on a fixed elevation (and they are flat). Of course, we use real-world elevations where possible, so if your mesh is way off, the lake could be on a plateau. Same applies to airports.

 

Bernd

[capt sl]

so does that mean default mesh is no use anymore? and we need to get some mesh product as well ?

[Jotayhen]

I believe there are several different mesh products that cover the same territory.  All of these products are available to the FS community.  There exists also the FSX default mesh.  It is reasonable to believe there are elevation discrepancies embedded within certain of these products and certainly among them.  In my mind it is not reasonable to believe that all of these mesh products will be, in all areas and in all respects, compatible with Global Vector.

 

I doubt seriously that Pilot's development team tested Global Vector using all of the available mesh products available to the FS community so they could advise us of these pending problems.  It seems more accurate to me to assume they attempted to identify and use the most accurate elevation data available - or - to pick a particular mesh product and develop Global Vector around that product.  If the latter is the case, then I believe it would have been helpful to the FS community if Orbx had advised us of the possibility of these pending elevation problems and informed us of the particular mesh product utilized to develop Global Vector.  

 

Having this additional information available in the form of some initial product disclosures prior to release and understanding more fully that there are inevitable elevation discrepancies resident within the different mesh products available to all of us would have been helpful.

 

It appears the best approach to resolving these few elevation anomalies that are appearing is to identify the particular mesh product that was used by the Pilot development team and install that product.  I'm very sure this is not the answer many of us want to hear or accept but it appears to be the answer to these issues none the less.

[Bernd Podhradsky]

The simple advise is: the better your mesh product is, the better VECTOR will look. As said in a previous post, vector data does contain elevation references (such as airport boundary polygon and lake elevation). We decided to use accurate elevation sources to determine them. We certainly couldn't make VECTOR for all possible mesh add-on combinations. Remember that it's not only a question of 'default mesh or add-on mesh': it's much more complicated, because users could have mesh-add ons for certain areas and default mesh for others.

Any good resolution mesh will do (FS Global 2008, 2010, Ultimate, FS Genesis...).

Bernd

[FlyTweety]

The simple advise is: the better your mesh product is, the better VECTOR will look. As said in a previous post, vector data does contain elevation references (such as airport boundary polygon and lake elevation). We decided to use accurate elevation sources to determine them. We certainly couldn't make VECTOR for all possible mesh add-on combinations. Remember that it's not only a question of 'default mesh or add-on mesh': it's much more complicated, because users could have mesh-add ons for certain areas and default mesh for others.

Any good resolution mesh will do (FS Global 2008, 2010, Ultimate, FS Genesis...).

Bernd

 

 

Where have been this discussion BEFORE Vector was sold?

 

The only clear announcement you can find in the Shop is: "FTX Global VECTOR is designed for FTX Global BASE and requires that product to be installed also. "

 

No word about "using Vector without (our) commercial Mesh products leads to massive faulty displaying of Landscape, Rivers, Sea and Airports."

 

Seems you don´t see that currently VECTOR is literally unusable (at least for P3D v2 User), and i can´t  accept that someone try to sell an expensive (or additional) product by placing an inexpensive product without a clear communication in advance.

 

And the only clear statement have been made for "Global Base".

[masterhawk]

Where have been this discussion BEFORE Vector was sold?

 

The only clear announcement you can find in the Shop is: "FTX Global VECTOR is designed for FTX Global BASE and requires that product to be installed also. "

 

No word about "using Vector without (our) commercial Mesh products leads to massive faulty displaying of Landscape, Rivers, Sea and Airports."

 

Seems you don´t see that currently VECTOR is literally unusable (at least for P3D v2 User), and i can´t  accept that someone try to sell an expensive (or additional) product by placing an inexpensive product without a clear communication in advance.

 

And the only clear statement have been made for "Global Base".

Hi, it wasn't statet that clear. But on the FTX Global Vector description it is stated, that the airport elevations will be corrected for the whole world to realistic elevations. So if you know that default FSX mesh is very unprecise, you could imagine, that you would need a better mesh. An there are also exist freeware mesh. But you have to pick together the files for the whole world. Or you buy one all inclusive mesh like FS Gloal 2005/2008/Ultimate, FS Genesis ...

[Bernd Podhradsky]

I wasn't that much involved in the press release stuff, because I was busy developing. However, what I can say is that mesh data logically affects vector data. If you have a high cliff (just as an example) then changing the vector data by providing more accurate coastlines without having a good mesh installed will certainly not create a realistic view in the sim, because what you see is always a combination of mesh and vector data. This is true for a lot of other examples (i.e. if you have a river running through a valley, having the correct river isn't enough, because you need the mesh to get the impression of a valley).

Default FSX mesh quality varies greatly between different areas, which is why the problems with VECTOR will not be everywhere.

That's whyt I can say from a technical point of view.

Bernd

I wasn't that much involved in the press release stuff, because I was busy developing. However, what I can say is that mesh data logically affects vector data. If you have a high cliff (just as an example) then changing the vector data by providing more accurate coastlines will certainly not create a realistic view in the sim, because what you see is always a combination of mesh and vector data. This is true for a lot of other examples (i.e. if you have a river running through a valley, having the correct river isn't enough, because you need the mesh to get the impression of a valley).

Default FSX mesh quality varies greatly between different areas, which is why the problems with VECTOR will not be everywhere.

That's whyt I can say from a technical point of view.

Bernd

[jaseman007]

Personally I don't want to have these problems and have no intention of buying another product so vector looks okay. Is there a way for me to remove vector and return my sim to just FTX global base?

[FlyTweety]

Though i´m aware of the technical side, ´til yesterday i was naiv enough to belive, that Vector correct this on its own because as a standalone Add On (next to Global Base) it was not announced that i´m wrong in my opinion.

 

By the way, the Mesh is one thing, but what about all the black Water areas? Is it also related to the Mesh issue? There are literally uncountable artefacts here in Germany, wherever you fly, hundreds of small lakes are black as well as parts of rivers. To me it is a generic problem without the possibility to show "look here, look there.." .

[Andyphone]

I think the problems with Vector will be fixed, as for the black water areas or similar. The real point here is: mesh or not mesh? It was not and I think it is not stated cleary by Orbx that Vector would work as it should be only with good mesh (better if PILOT'S), it was only stated that of course with good mesh we would be getting a "FSX world" as much as real as possibile especially regarding elevations of airports.

 

Ciao

[jfail]

Bernd:

 

I would like to get a definitive answer to the following question.  I have seen many comments on the forums saying Yes, No, Don't know etc. and I am totally confused.

 

I have FTX Global 1.2, I have Vector 1.0.  I am using Prepar3D 2.0.

 

Should I or should I not install FSGENESIS mesh??  I have multiple CD's for FSGENESIS and am just not sure at all if I should use them and if there be any conflict with Global/Vector?

 

I also have GEX/UTX for FSX but have never installed them in P3D vx.x due to the Flight1 EULA.  I am fairly certain that I do not need them for P3D V2 in that Global and Vector are in effect replacements for them?

[Bernd Podhradsky]

If you don't have any mesh installed so far, then yes, FS Genesis will improve your experience with VECTOR, especially in areas where default mesh is poor.

Bernd

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[cvearl]

I certainly get the logic. Based on one of the release notes I assumed that these elevation corrections would have been optional so that at least FSX default mesh would look correct even though it wasn't technically correct compared to the real world elevation data.

I guess what I was thinking is that it would have been better to have the option to enable or disable these elevation corrections in the product somehow. Have a setting for FSX default mesh so in the absence of a mesh product, you wouldn't see these issues. Then for those who choose to buy FS global or some other mesh product, allow them to turn these elevation corrections back on.

In the original thread discussing the features of the actor I saw this line...

Quote... Corrected airport elevations (optional install)

http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/64669-orbx-announces-ftx-global-vector-and-iceland-free-demo/

Which lead me to believe that this would be the case.

Well here's hoping they enable the ability to turn off the elevation corrections for those of us that are perhaps not in a position to buy a product right now after having spent $160 on global and vector already.

Just my two cents.

[Andyphone]

As I understand now even disabling the elevation fix will not solve all the problems for those who don't have good mesh installed. This is a very nice post with explanation by PILOT'S: http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/70640-mesh-clarification/

 

Ciao

[rockliffe]

The bottom line is, I can't remember at any time, anything being said about Mesh being a compulsory addon to Vector.

[Andyphone]

The bottom line is, I can't remember at any time, anything being said about Mesh being a compulsory addon to Vector.

 

That I am complaining about, even if I do have mesh installed. It was never made clear, actually it was stated that no mesh was no problem at all or at least all statements cleary lead to believe so! Anyway there is an official clarification now: http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/70640-mesh-clarification/

 

Ciao

[cvearl]

Ok so i get it. Some Vector elements have elevations hard coded. Pilots chose to adjust elevations of rivers, lakes and airports to best fit thier Mesh products. Ok. Cool. Best companion to Vector is FS Global 2010.

For anyone not yet in a position to buy Mesh right now and feeling like experimenting....

Free mesh http://simviation.com//fsx_terrainmesh.htm

[rockliffe]

The bottom line is, there should be no way IMO that any product should HAVE to have another product installed to make it work correctly...

[NoLonger]

The bottom line is, there should be no way IMO that any product should HAVE to have another product installed to make it work correctly...

 

Well, Vector and OpenLC will also require FTX Global... The problem here is that the need for addon mesh hasn't been communicated. There isn't even a mention of mesh at all on the product pages. If they would have said from day one that you would really need addon mesh (and preferably FS Global 2010) then there wouldn't have been a real problem, I think. The problem here is that people who have bought an addon for 60 euro's discover after doing so that they need to shelf out 60 euro's again for mesh. I can understand the logic behind it (see www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/70640-mesh-clarification ) but that's a totally different point.

[rockliffe]

Absolutely...

[windquest]

I normally don't comment on things like this, but I am new at this, I read the same stuff, I didn't know anything about mesh,land class or anything else related to scenery but I looked at the fantastic demo of Iceland and said wow.  If you read the sales pitch on the product it tells you that it included FSGlobal Mesh.  It shows you that it is using base and vector....and additional Mesh.  So not having any mesh, I bought some.  It also seams reasonable that products like this build on a base.  I guess its sorta like we buy a region that is better than default, and then we buy airports to improve on the base.  They are dependent for sure and if you choose to expand the experience,  needed. For those of you flying low and slow, the details are far more visible than flying at FL310.  I want to be able to use real world charts and navigate by dead reckoning, and in my opinion each addition has been an improvement from a company that is really trying to build and support a great product. No they didn't say " if you buy the base, then you may want to buy Vector and you need a better Mesh" in so many words.  But, before spending  a chunk of hard earned cash, it is good to know what you are or aren't buying...and while it wasn't crystal clear, the in!formation was out there. For me the changes are gradual, some might say not worth it, others are ecstatic, the only opinion that counts is yours!

[Bernd Podhradsky]

The bottom line is, there should be no way IMO that any product should HAVE to have another product installed to make it work correctly...

I agree, but when the FSX engine simply doesn't allow this, what should a developer do? FSX requires flat lakes to have a fixed, hardcoded elevation. Now, what elevation would you choose? Default Mesh? SRTM? ASTER? Whichever you choose, you will disappoint users of the mesh you didn't choose. We would have high-res mesh users complaining that they have spent money on TWO products just to find out that they don't work together.

Again, I understand your message and I absolutely agree, that FSX should have a way to flatten lakes without hardcoded elevation, but it doesn't.

Bernd

[FlyTweety]

Again, I understand your message and I absolutely agree, that FSX should have a way to flatten lakes without hardcoded elevation, but it doesn't. Bernd

 

No Bernd, that´s not the message.

 

The message is, that ORBX as the Publisher and Pilots as the Developer missed it to make a clear statement that it is impossible to use Vector WITHOUT a external mesh Add On, not included in the Vector download.

There have be tons of screenshots, statements, advertising.

But not a single word like the need of FTX Global.

ORBX missed it to let the User decide if they want to install a 3´rd Party Mesh (witch may double the cost) BEFORE he click the "buy" Button.

 

This is the message!

 

ORBX messed it up this time, this is the dissapointment. because i belive, nobody had has expected that from ORBX.

 

I think, this is the most sad here, in my eyes ORBX lost a lot of their reputation in this case.

[Bernd Podhradsky]

The message I quoted said that there should be no product thst HAS TO HAVE another product to be installed and that's what I commented on. So I was talking about the technical details. I wasn't much involved in the marketing stuff, so I can't say much about this.

Bernd

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[Paul K]

The bottom line is, I can't remember at any time, anything being said about Mesh being a compulsory addon to Vector.

 

Neither can I. Much was made of Vector's enhancement of Global, but the need for an additional mesh product really was not made clear enough. I've bought Vector, but I'm not happy that I might have to spend the same again on a new mesh product that I had no intention of buying anyway, Vector or no Vector. We'll see what Orbx themselves say - I assume most people are on their Christmas break at the moment.

[Andyphone]

No Bernd, that´s not the message.

 

The message is, that ORBX as the Publisher and Pilots as the Developer missed it to make a clear statement that it is impossible to use Vector WITHOUT a external mesh Add On, not included in the Vector download.

There have be tons of screenshots, statements, advertising.

But not a single word like the need of FTX Global.

ORBX missed it to let the User decide if they want to install a 3´rd Party Mesh (witch may double the cost) BEFORE he click the "buy" Button.

 

This is the message!

 

ORBX messed it up this time, this is the dissapointment. because i belive, nobody had has expected that from ORBX.

 

I think, this is the most sad here, in my eyes ORBX lost a lot of their reputation in this case.

 

We pretty much all agree on this, but everyone can make mistakes even Orbx sometime. They will find a solution to this and keep their reputation 

Ciao

[FlyTweety]

The message I quoted said that there should be no product should has to have ANOTHER  product to be installed and that's what I commented on. So I was talking about the technical details. I wasn't much involved in the marketing stuff, so I can't say much about this. Bernd Gesendet von meinem GT-I9300 mit Tapatalk

 

With a slight shift of the emphasis i agree with you. So, the mesh adjustments have to be INSIDE of Vector. But let´s wait for the official reaction of ORBX

 

THEY messed it up.

[cvearl]

I agree, but when the FSX engine simply doesn't allow this, what should a developer do? FSX requires flat lakes to have a fixed, hardcoded elevation. Now, what elevation would you choose? Default Mesh? SRTM? ASTER? Whichever you choose, you will disappoint users of the mesh you didn't choose. We would have high-res mesh users complaining that they have spent money on TWO products just to find out that they don't work together. Again, I understand your message and I absolutely agree, that FSX should have a way to flatten lakes without hardcoded elevation, but it doesn't. Bernd

 

I'm just confused because.... And I post this a third time here as everyone is watching different threads...

 

http://www.orbxsyste...land-free-demo/

 

QUOTE #1 - Corrected airport elevations (optional install)

This was at the top of that thread.

 

QUOTE #2 - Further down the page same thread from JV...

NEW: QUICK FAQ

Q: Do I need to purchase 3rd party mesh?  A: No, at install time you can decide if you want to use the corrected airport elevations or not. If you don't install them you can use the default FSX/P3D mesh. If at some later point you purchase FSGlobal or FSGenesis mesh, simply re-run the installer.

 

Again... Where do I turn it off. I am sure this is all a misunderstanding and I just don't know where to do that. I watched during the install and did not see the option to enable or leave disabled the elevation corrections. Is it not in the current release?

 

Charles.

[Bernd Podhradsky]

JV talks about airports in these threads, I was talking about lakes. We are currently discussing these issues internally, but we have to understand that there are two of them:

.) Airport Elevation Correction, which will definitely need an updated logic and will be patched in one of the next updates (some wrong elevations were reported)

.) Mesh add-on requirement and how to deal with that

Bernd

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[cvearl]

JV talks about airports in these threads, I was talking about lakes. We are currently discussing these issues internally, but we have to understand that there are two of them:

.) Airport Elevation Correction, which will definitely need an updated logic and will be patched in one of the next updates (some wrong elevations were reported)

.) Mesh add-on requirement and how to deal with that

Bernd

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That's really cool. Thanks! Just a reply is a show of good service.

 

So I assume if it can be done for airports, it can be done globally for water as well. I mean for those that cannot buy a Mesh at the moment and when they CAN buy a mesh (and Pilots Global is the obvious choice!), turn the corrections back on. 

 

Charles.

[jaseman007]

I'm just confused because.... And I post this a third time here as everyone is watching different threads...

 

http://www.orbxsyste...land-free-demo/

 

QUOTE #1 - Corrected airport elevations (optional install)

This was at the top of that thread.

 

QUOTE #2 - Further down the page same thread from JV...

NEW: QUICK FAQ

Q: Do I need to purchase 3rd party mesh?  A: No, at install time you can decide if you want to use the corrected airport elevations or not. If you don't install them you can use the default FSX/P3D mesh. If at some later point you purchase FSGlobal or FSGenesis mesh, simply re-run the installer.

 

Again... Where do I turn it off. I am sure this is all a misunderstanding and I just don't know where to do that. I watched during the install and did not see the option to enable or leave disabled the elevation corrections. Is it not in the current release?

 

Charles.

Just a FYI. I didn't get an option for this either. I did ask yesterday how can I turn off vector but haven't had an answer. It's going to be a great product only if you buy mesh it seems. So until then I'm happy to have purchased Vector but would just like it turned off for now.

[Bernd Podhradsky]

Charles,

the reason why it can't be done for lakes is simple: what if you have only FS Genesis Europe Mesh installed? What if you only have FS Global Ultimate Oceania? We would have to support every possible combination, because FSX requires the lake elevations to be hard-coded.

What is technically possible, is that we could lakes to some sort of 'stick to underlying mesh' mode, which would remove the hard-coded elevation issue but could result in non-flat lakes, if the underlying mesh is not flat. We are currently having an internal discussion about this.

Bernd

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[FlyTweety]

We pretty much all agree on this, but everyone can make mistakes even Orbx sometime. They will find a solution to this and keep their reputation 

Ciao

 

Yes, this is what i expect too.

 

After a couple of days full of internal discussions ( maybe after the hollidays) i´m pretty confident, that ORBX will offer a solution for the future, and again, looking back to the experience with ORBX, the very most Users can live with this offer.

 

Time will show.

[jfail]

I am so hopelessly confused it's ridiculous.

 

I have OrbxFTXGlobal 1.20 installed

I have OrbxFTXGlobal Vector 1.00 installed

 

I have FSGENESIS installed for North America, Mexico, Canada and others.

 

Do I need some other product?  Should I have even installed FSGenesis, which I installed AFTER Global & Vector?

 

I have posted on other threads about problems with large Lakes in Colorado which go away when I disable ORBX!VECTOR in the P3D V2 Scenery library.

[Bernd Podhradsky]

jfail,

wherw exactly did you post that?

Bernd

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[jfail]

http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/70523-from-the-pilots-site/

 

Posts 13 and 20.

 

And yes, it was not a support forum.  I was just discussing problems with others.

 

Edit:

 

It might be worth noting that I do have MegaSceneryEarth 2.0 for Colorado installed and it is above ORBX!VECTOR in the scenery library in case that might be a factor in this.

[Alex Goff]

Just a FYI. I didn't get an option for this either. I did ask yesterday how can I turn off vector but haven't had an answer. It's going to be a great product only if you buy mesh it seems. So until then I'm happy to have purchased Vector but would just like it turned off for now.

 

Hi Jas,

 

I commented yesterday with a procedure for removing Vector through removing the library entries and deleting the folders. Bernd may have more advice to pick up straggler files but if you would like to disable Vector for the time being here is how:

 

http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/70495-uninstall-instructions/