Mac_Maddog88 Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 And for the first time, it couldn't have been better. Flew from KJAC to KBZN in the Metro. I know, not the best plane to learn VORs in for the first time, but it was an interesting experience. One thing that struck me was how I had to hand-fly such a long-ass distance! I'd never done this kind of flying before, and as I landed at BZN, I was met with such a feeling of accomplishment knowing these are skills I can use in the real world. If you haven't learned to use VORs yet, do it, now! You won't regret it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabble Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Yep, it's fun! You can ease the workload if you have an autopilot - just set the bearing so that you stay on the radial, checking periodically for wind drift. It gets more interesting when you go cross country using a sequence of legs made of of VOR radials, NDB bearings, and even ILS/LOC signals. It can be a challenge to create a good route, and you have to stay alert waiting for the next point to change course. If you've not seen it, this site is quite useful - It covers approaches & procedures too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Hamilton Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 When I first got into this hobby, I printed out most of the stuff on that website. Was very rewarding doing my first IFR flight in total fog, and finding that runway by following the VOR... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Best way to fly IMHO, VORs and NDBs make simming a lot more fun and way more interesting for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Best way to fly IMHO, VORs and NDBs make simming a lot more fun and way more interesting for sure! I agree. I've always favoured radio navigation over GPS - its much more of a challenge. I think my longest VOR-navigated flight was Bangor Maine to Edwards AFB in FS98, using Abacus' CoPIlot flight planner. I felt I'd really simulated something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Howarth Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Try it also with just a DME and ADF thats fun too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac_Maddog88 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 The Metro is just a hassle to fly with VORs! You're handlfying a plane as powerful and sensitive as that thing while trying to fly via radials... Next time I think I'll have to try it in IFR conditions! This type of flying is just so much more satisfying than taking off, setting the plane on autopilot, and then browsing reddit until your approach! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominique Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I had to hand-fly such a long-ass distance! The Metro is just a hassle to fly with VORs! You're handlfying a plane I don't have the Metroliner so I don't know her configuration but, generally speaking, flying radials does not imply (you can but don't "have to") hand flying, except for a short time after take off to establish your flight on the first radial. The radio nav instruments will drive your autopilot as a GPS or FMS would do as soon as you are at the right altitude to receive the signal and on a radial. To get on the radial, you use (most of the time) the HDG function of the AP which will call the NAV or APP function. Then, even if you fly with GPS , it is safer to cross check with VOR beacons. Finally, Nullack is very right, the real challenge in radio nav is the almost forgotten NDB navigation in a windy situation ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotayhen Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 As you are becoming more comfortable and competent tracking VOR radials, start also to consider the possibility that you can track FROM a VOR just as easily as you can track TO a VOR. Also, quite a few GA aircraft have two nav radios and so you may also attempt "radial intercepts" or flying on the radial from one VOR until you reach the radial of a second VOR as indicated by your second navigational device. This will allow you to practice finding facilities that don't have a VOR close but are positioned at the intersection of the radials of two VOR's. It's great fun and a very satisfying learning experience which, in the end, rewards you by teaching you a useful skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remko Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Here's another (real world) challenge: try flying a radial to/from an NDB using your ADF (not a VOR!), preferably with a strong cross wind. You may want to draw this out on paper first to see how that would work. If you log your track, see what happens if you don't compensate for wind and just follow the needle... Remko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabble Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 As you are becoming more comfortable and competent tracking VOR radials, start also to consider the possibility that you can track FROM a VOR just as easily as you can track TO a VOR. Also, quite a few GA aircraft have two nav radios and so you may also attempt "radial intercepts" or flying on the radial from one VOR until you reach the radial of a second VOR as indicated by your second navigational device. This will allow you to practice finding facilities that don't have a VOR close but are positioned at the intersection of the radials of two VOR's. It's great fun and a very satisfying learning experience which, in the end, rewards you by teaching you a useful skill. That is very useful indeed. Say you're flying a radial towards/away from VOR1, to an intercept point of a VOR2 radial (using Nav1 & Nav2). You then change course to fly this VOR2 radial, and retune Nav1 to VOR3 to reach another intercept point, etc... This means you can fly a succession of radial sections without necessarily overflying any beacon itself, and that way you can travel a long cross-country route without the course being too zig-zaggy. Similarly you can include NDB bearings as part of this, though that's a little more challenging because it's harder to adjust for wind. There's an example mixed route here as part of that tutorial above. For your destination, many airfields have VOR (or NDB) beacons nearby, and they form part of a standard approach procedure. This means you might line up with the beacon along a radial if it's aligned with the runway, or else overfly it and then fly a specific radial to reach a point where you can see the runway. There's always a defined point where you can safely be at a certain altitude, so you can best see the runway in case of low cloud. If you're coming from the "wrong" direction, you can do a procedure turn to accurately change by 180 deg. Such airports have published "approach plates" to describe these procedures, covered here in the tutorial. The US approach plates can be found here, and other countries have similar sites. While it seems a lot to learn at the start, you'll be surprised how quickly you get the hang of it. If you can accurately fly cross-country in gusty winds over mountainous terrain and then land with minimum allowable cloud level, you know you have it sussed. Have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Stewart Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I recently bought a real-world manual for instrument flying and my goodness has it made simming rewarding ! One of my favourites is a DME Arc arrival. Read up on it and give it a try, it's great fun Cheers, Gav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac_Maddog88 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 I don't have the Metroliner so I don't know her configuration but, generally speaking, flying radials does not imply (you can but don't "have to") hand flying, except for a short time after take off to establish your flight on the first radial. The radio nav instruments will drive your autopilot as a GPS or FMS would do as soon as you are at the right altitude to receive the signal and on a radial. To get on the radial, you use (most of the time) the HDG function of the AP which will call the NAV or APP function. Then, even if you fly with GPS , it is safer to cross check with VOR beacons. Finally, Nullack is very right, the real challenge in radio nav is the almost forgotten NDB navigation in a windy situation ! The Metro comes with an autopilot unit, however it's just a 2D popup panel. In reality, most metros didn't have an autopilot. Dominique, if you like the DC-9, you'd love the Metro. It's a great plane and I believe it's on sale right now too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominique Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 It sounds strange that a commuter airliner would have no AP to cope with the heavy load of work generated by the approaches of large busy aiports. And I hope she trims well ! Thanks for the tip, Razbam are nice people but, right or wrong, I've never been truly impressed by their products. Anyway, I am doing the reverse that you do. I've always navigated with VOR barely using the GPS (It's still off in my A2A Skylane default config) but I'm coming to it to fly GPS approaches of small airports and I'm eyeing the 750GTN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac_Maddog88 Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 It sounds strange that a commuter airliner would have no AP to cope with the heavy load of work generated by the approaches of large busy aiports. And I hope she trims well ! Thanks for the tip, Razbam are nice people but, right or wrong, I've never been truly impressed by their products. My dad actually flew the Metro 20 years ago or so. They had to hand fly it the whole way! Now he flies 737s and what not, which are a whole different plane! And yes, to be honest, most of their older planes aren't really of my interest, military and such. The Metro is graphically near the level of the DC-9 and has great systems simulation. I flew the whole thing using my dad's old manual from when he flew it, everything works, it's a great plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominique Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Nice to know that it is better modeled than their older products, it'd be interesting to get a feedback from your Dad too ! I actually hesitate for my next aircraft between the T Duke and the Q400. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoLonger Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Flying with VOR is great! I specially like to use triangulation to get to destinations that have no VOR themselves. I once wrote a tutorial about using VOR and while it was written for (dare I say it) MS Flight, the information obviously also works for FSX/P3D. http://forum.avsim.net/topic/380559-complete-vor-tutorial/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobdeVries Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Thanks Jeroen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac_Maddog88 Posted March 31, 2015 Author Share Posted March 31, 2015 Nice to know that it is better modeled than their older products, it'd be interesting to get a feedback from your Dad too ! I actually hesitate for my next aircraft between the T Duke and the Q400. I don't think we'll ever get feedback! He normally just gets home from a trip and refuses to touch the flightsim! He'll sit and watch golf and old westerns all his time off! Guess there's such thing as too much flying! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shermank Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Yep, it's fun! You can ease the workload if you have an autopilot - just set the bearing so that you stay on the radial, checking periodically for wind drift. It gets more interesting when you go cross country using a sequence of legs made of of VOR radials, NDB bearings, and even ILS/LOC signals. It can be a challenge to create a good route, and you have to stay alert waiting for the next point to change course. If you've not seen it, this site is quite useful - It covers approaches & procedures too. I would like to point out that this tutorial was created by Charles Wood, a founder of www.dc3airways.com, of which I am a proud and participating member. If you like the DC3s, come and join us. learn more abut navigation, fly on your own, or take part in our several online Multiplay events. I dare say you will not find a more friendly group of lfight simmers anywhere on the Internet, present company excluded, of course....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominique Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Speaking of the DC3, wasn't Jan Visser on modeling a vintage VC for a freeware Gooney bird ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shermank Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Speaking of the DC3, wasn't Jan Visser on modeling a vintage VC for a freeware Gooney bird ? Hi dominique. I am not sure what Jan Visser has been up to lately. But Helmut Jahn and is team of created an excellent Brasler Turbo Prop DC3. It has become very popular among our pilots, though I stay with the Maam. I find the Basler VC a little tiny to deal with because the Basler really requires specific real world procedures for start up. >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ocg_9OQ1kII Sherm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominique Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Thank you, Jan was designing a VC for the sister DC3 of the Brasler aircraft (non turbine) I think. The previews, I think it was on the Sim Outhouse site, were pretty impressive I had so much fun with the MAAM in FS8 and 9 ... Actually I came back to FS2002 from Fly!2 because of her. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabble Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I would like to point out that this tutorial was created by Charles Wood, a founder of www.dc3airways.com, of which I am a proud and participating member. If you like the DC3s, come and join us. learn more abut navigation, fly on your own, or take part in our several online Multiplay events. I dare say you will not find a more friendly group of lfight simmers anywhere on the Internet, present company excluded, of course.... ) I'm intrigued! I'll check it out, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shermank Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'm intrigued! I'll check it out, thanks! Please do. I really think you will like how we operate....In fact this is such a friendly group, that over the years I have met several of the pilots in person. I live in Illinois. Next month my wife and I are vacationing in France. Part of that trip will be to Normandy, where 4 of my fellow pilots and their wives, from UK, France, Netherlands and Germany are coming to spend a few days together. I am probably closer in friendship to some of these men than I am to people who live nearby.... Sherm DCA 662 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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