John Venema Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Due to an internal issue regarding Orbx company policy about appropriate scenery content, we wish to advise that Mark Lee has revoked his permission to allow Orbx to publish his airfields in our freeware releases. Orbx as a publisher of freeware scenery has to abide by the rights of the authors and developers who contribute their work free of charge and in such cases where their permission to publish their work is removed we are obliged to respect those rights. We therefore have no option but to respect Mark's wishes as the original author of his scenery and have withdrawn FTX Freeware 1.2 availability immediately until we can build a new release in the next few days without his content. I know this will come as a shock to many FTX users and fans of Mark's airfield, as they were much enjoyed by many people. Orbx wishes Mark all the best in his future endeavours and we sincerely apologise for the temporarily unavailability of the release and the subsequent reduction in the number of airfields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffman Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 That's really bad news . Can you please advise how many airfields and scenery elements are going to be lost without Mark's contributions being included? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeronauta Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Very bad indeed..... Does this mean that the Freware team cannot now recreate thoes airfields? Jorge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_NZ Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 1). Can we know exactly what the issue is. This may sound rude but your message is standard PR fare and I'd like the full story for better or worse. I guess myself (and others no doubt) would like a better idea of what is going on. Not a who's at fault etc, but more some why's and wherefore's and why it can't be worked out. 2). Will his airfields be made available seperately, somewhere else, whatever, aside from Orbx. 3). Assuming Mark continues making free airfields for the community - seperatly from Orbx, will you allow him to make them work with FTX - ie. access to all things necessary to make them blend in as they do currently. 4). I recommend in the future that you make better agreements with people that prevent work from being 'pulled'. ie. Once developers agree to let you distribute it you should be free to distribute it freely, unmodified, from then on. If you wish to change it, charge for it, bundle it with something else etc, then that would require new permission. I don't know the goings on, hence question number 1, but I don't think it's a good thing for ANYONE (eg. Orbx, Mark, or the community) that these airfields are being 'pulled'. It strikes me as a lose-lose-lose situation and I would like to see some of the famous good-will around here come to the fore and have any 'issues' dealt with/put aside/negotiated/whatever - for the good of all, for the currently available stuff. What happens in future is different of course. @Geoffman - if did get freeware airfields 1.2, read the credits in the manual and weep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Webb Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 That sad news and I wish to thank Mark for his contributions. You have shown what can be done in FSX and I have really appreciated enjoying his creations. Cheers, Matt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotspot Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Sorry to hear this news - all the best to Mark with thanks and a note of appreciation and encouragement to the Orbx team. Cheers, Bill \ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgruschow Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 That's really bad news . Can you please advise how many airfields and scenery elements are going to be lost without Mark's contributions being included? 137 minus 108 = 29 left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aussieman Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 And the question nobody has asked yet. If you already have FTX Freeware 1.2 do we have to remove it from our computers? At the moment I am not prepared to do this. Cheers Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pphibbs Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Hi John, For those of us with his airfields, will they remain or will future updates weed them out? All the best Mark. We and Orbx will be sad to see such talent removed from their resources. Regards, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Rock Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Bummer. I downloaded it tonight before the link was removed and I got a CRC error with the file.....so it seems I've wasted 734mb of download for nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmrich28 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Well waking up to this news is a nightmare for all of us! Mark and John, I really hope that something can be done to resolve whatever issues are involved. Losing Mark's work is like losing a top player for the season, this is going to hurt all of us badly. I'm REALLY going to miss your talent and huge contribution to this whole project. Someone tell me I'm just dreaming!!! All the best to Mark and I just hope for the Orbx team they can somehow come close to finding someone with half the dedication and skill to Mark and get these fabulous strips redone for all the new members coming. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodduck Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Over the years, particularly where I live in the QLD, it has been great to have the scenery Mark has produced. That is a talent that will be sorely missed. I sincerely hope a solution can be achieved. All the best Mark. Cheers, John W AUBLUE: 6065 AUGOLD: 6065 AUGREEN: ? AURED: ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markwlee Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I am sure something can be sorted - just not here. I am already in discussion - with 2 separate and very kind offers for hosting. Could be a win-win situation. OrbX gets to distance itself from my style of design. The flightsim community still gets to fly in the best environment: FTX Australia - with the widest variety of small strips. Will just take a while to get up and running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heiko Glatthorn Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I am sure something can be sorted - just not here. I am already in discussion - with 2 separate and very kind offers for hosting. Could be a win-win situation. OrbX gets to distance itself from my style of design. The flightsim community still gets to fly in the best environment: FTX Australia - with the widest variety of small strips. Will just take a while to get up and running. Phew, that was the good news... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted June 25, 2008 Author Share Posted June 25, 2008 1). Can we know exactly what the issue is. This may sound rude but your message is standard PR fare and I'd like the full story for better or worse. I guess myself (and others no doubt) would like a better idea of what is going on. Not a who's at fault etc, but more some why's and wherefore's and why it can't be worked out. 2). Will his airfields be made available seperately, somewhere else, whatever, aside from Orbx. 3). Assuming Mark continues making free airfields for the community - seperatly from Orbx, will you allow him to make them work with FTX - ie. access to all things necessary to make them blend in as they do currently. 4). I recommend in the future that you make better agreements with people that prevent work from being 'pulled'. ie. Once developers agree to let you distribute it you should be free to distribute it freely, unmodified, from then on. If you wish to change it, charge for it, bundle it with something else etc, then that would require new permission. I don't know the goings on, hence question number 1, but I don't think it's a good thing for ANYONE (eg. Orbx, Mark, or the community) that these airfields are being 'pulled'. It strikes me as a lose-lose-lose situation and I would like to see some of the famous good-will around here come to the fore and have any 'issues' dealt with/put aside/negotiated/whatever - for the good of all, for the currently available stuff. What happens in future is different of course. @Geoffman - if did get freeware airfields 1.2, read the credits in the manual and weep. Hi Ken, forgive my sanitised PR style announcement, it does sound very corporate on a second read doesn't it? Let me tell it warts and all ok? There's nothing sinister about anything here, and no bad blood. Just a difference of opinion and standards. To answer your very valid questions: 1. The issue is Mark placed adult, inappropropriate and offensive content in his scenery without me being aware of it until I saw some user posted screenshots after FTX Freeware 1.2 was released. I requested he remove it immediately and also the libraries containing that material. He declined, and disagreed with my thoughts on both Orbx company standards and how this content may affect our business and reputation. Mark felt it was a personal attack on him. It was not, it's just common sense. There may be debate ad infinitum about the content in question but the buck stops with me as the Director of the company which is publishing this software (free or otherwise). We have a customer and user base ranging from 8-80+ so we need to respect all age groups, sexes, religions, customs and we simply want to focus on content which creates the most realistic VFR environment possible. We are also applying for a "G" rating on our boxed DVD versions and this content would not allow that to proceed. 2. From Mark's post above it appears you will be able to download his airfields at some time in the future. I agree with Mark that it's good for you as simmers, and good for Orbx because we don't have a conflict of interest with regard to our content policy. So that's a positive outcome. 3. Of course we will allow Mark to make his airfields work with FTX. Why would we not? We'd like as many 3rd party addons to work with us. He just won't be able to use the Orbx libraries (which I think he does not use very much anyway), nor have early access to beta code and regions. I don't see that slowing him down a lot. 4. Ah, freeware... Welcome to the reality of freeware development, where even under a business structure like Orbx has, without signed contracts there is always a grey area about legal rights and ownership of content. We would never use anyone's content against their will and without permission. Just not worth the trouble and drama. Been there done that with VOZ and some of those soap operas. Remember the VOZ AI saga? You must remember Mark and the other freeware developers do this because THEY LOVE IT. They simply love making scenery and airports and would not think of being paid for it nor being locked into complex contracts and corporate BS. I agree. Let freeware be freeware and of course the grey area about rights and ownership comes with the territory. The payware side of Orbx is a very different beast, where everything is contracted even semi-formally in some cases, but all legally binding. I hope that anwers what I felt were very pertinent questions from Ken that got to the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrajag Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I think I have seen some of the scenery in question and was quite surprised. I wasn't 100% sure it was an Orbx thing or something I downloaded previously. It certainly isn't something I want to see when simming, especially at that resolution ) It is a wise decision for a corporate entity to not have such content, people are more likely to sue a company because they think they can make money out of it. A lone freeware author though is somewhat more free. Steven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjbrown7 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I am sure there will be much debate about the decision that Orbx made to ask the developer to change the scenery or pull it. I am sure it was frustrating but I for one support the decision, not so much based on the content as I wasn't offended but that the Orbx team is committed to there product being what it was intended to be. A Quality Scenery upgrade that will appeal to the masses. I allow my two daughters ages 7-9 to fly the flight simulator with out worry of any offensive material and honestly had they come across the naked lady on the beach I wouldn't be overly concerned but I would begin to worry about what would they would come across next. I am no prude but the constant bombardment of sexually graphic images and language in so many of our entertainment choices is getting tiresome. Just my 2 cents and thanks Orbx for a wonderful product. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Hall Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I would just like to say that I respect both sides of this unfortunate event, I saw the content and wasn't put of by it at all, it isn't g rated but very little is these days, I feel stronger about the shooters that have blood gushing out. Mark is prolific with his creations and like all artists wishes his stuff to be left intact, I respect that, And John has the public image of a fast expanding company to protect. Damm, I wish there was a solution to this as I feel the Synergy of the whole team was soaring, and the freeware airfields were a big contributor ,I feel to the overall success of the package. I would like to urge both parties to find a win win here, I was lucky enough to download early, but I feel for the guys that missed out, is there no way that a revised pack minus the offending location be allowed to be downloaded. and the more controversial stuff be downloaded elsewhere. There has to be a way, this team is too just damm good to be separated In future any pilot who finds an interesting place like the one in question, PLEASE keep it close to your chest(no pun intended there BTW) Thats it I'm of to find the black armband. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Private-Cowboy Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 That's indeed bad luck for all of us. Do you mind telling what was so offensive? I flew alot around the airfield but have not seen anything that would offend me so far. I'm just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Ross Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Surely it is not a question of what offends any one individual but what the letter of the law is relating to a certificate of "suitable for general viewing". You can bet your bottom dollar someone would come out of the wood pile and clobber Orbx for the material in question no matter how relatively innocuous the content. John Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Private-Cowboy Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Well it depends. I don't know what the issue was but posession of some stuff is illegal around here. And I don't wanna have anything on my system that may violate the law. Esp. if I don't know what it actually is. Maybe it's something totally harmless but I like to know what we are talking about here in order to know what my personal consequences should be. A violation of ORBX standards is one thing but I think people should be informed what the problem is in plain english instead of pr-speak. If it's just some nudities here or there it is ok with me and not a problem with the law but there are a lot of things that cross over into the grey zone or are plain illegal to posess. And I want to know what I'm dealing with here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostlp Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 "You can bet your bottom......." John Ross No pun intended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turnip Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 OK >>> Here's the rub! I got in kinda late on this topic but I am the one who caused the problem. A few days ago, I took some screenshots of an area that had a nude beach next to the airport. While I had seen prior screenshots of this area, and the nude people, I placed 2 shots of the beach along with shots of the field, skydivers, grass mowers etc in a kind of "tour" of the area. While doing this, I did not engage my brain "I guess" in thinking that this would offend anyone. It was not my intent to offend or hurt anyone as this was THE most amazing field I have found so far in FTX. Everyone here has my deepest apologies for posting this as I should have kept it under my hat. As was stated before, porn is EVERYWHERE on the net. These images were NOT, in my opinion porn! To lose Mark over this in humble opinion is absurd. He was / is an extremely valuable asset in this endeavour. With that said, I do respect and understand ORBX' position on this. Once again, flame me if you feel the need. Lets just hope they can come to some agreement or understanding as the loss of Mark is a tremendous blow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Private-Cowboy Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I've seen the offending content myself in the meantime. And while I respect the developer (Marc) and admire the beautiful work he's done understand the position ORBX has. Besides that I don't really understand what the respective content bring to the freeware package. Worst case is someone is pissed of by what he sees and the best case would be that one's shaking his head and fly on enjoying the scenery. It's nothing that would make the scenery any better or worse. It's just useless and I agree that parting ways over that is absurd. Guess this must be some of life's oddities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Webb Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I too see both sides of the argument. It's a shame that is came to the point of a seperation, but I look forward to Mark's new packages. Turnip, what you did was not a problem in my view. It was inevitable and at least it came to OrbX's staff's attention via a light hearted thread. There are people out there in the FS community that could possibly find the content offensive and could also possibly make a scene out of it. Unlikely, but still possible. Cheers, Matt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Kae Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Not to worry, Mark's scenery will live under the 3rd party support section http://vistaoz.org/smf/index.php?board=66 (registration needed ) over at VOZ, Mark will continue to build on the FTX format and he has kindly agreed to stay/host with VOZ. So in effect same thing... different hat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwolb Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Just noticed the new post about Mark going over to the VOZ side of things, great news on that part, to bad about the other stuff. Hope everything works out for the best. Maybe someone can Photoshop out the naughty bits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markwlee Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Hey Turnip You didn't cause the problem! Thank you for your comments on Tyagarah. I'm happy you enjoyed the field so much. I build firstly for myself but love to see the enjoyment spread around. For those of you who think this break is absurd: please remember there are always two sides and you only get to see one on this forum. Sorry about the incovenience. It's a very big inconvenience to me, too, and has caused me a great deal of stress the last couple of days. I've put a lot of myself into those 108 fields but I will keep developing - maybe more slowly at first. I've already made my first new field - Mt Brisbane (an 800' long bumpy field at 2000' elevation just near Watt's Bridge - love it!) using some new Photoreal techniques and am currently experimenting bringing Photoreal to Pittsworth (an area with appalling Google Earth coverage). I have no plans for any more nude beaches as there are none I know that are relevant to new areas I am working on. I may make some swimsuited people for beaches like Hastings Pt and the Gold Coast but not anytime soon. As an independent developer I will be able to continue to place the occasional quirky object (and I don't mean nude) without contravening the latest company policy but will not have access to pre-builds of FTX. For those of you worried about finding anything nasty: there were just the nudes at Tyagarah and Noosa, a parachuteless skydiver at YTYH, a dingo with a Cupie doll in his mouth on Fraser Is, 2 3-D people very close together at Canungra and some UKVFR cows on the start of a runway at Aratula. There may be some other things, too - but if you steer clear of those places you should be pretty safe. Oops, I forgot: there's a lady moonwalking at Dunwich and some birds on approach at one or two strips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice_King Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Well done everyone concerned. This is how a difference of interest and conflict should be resolved, quickly and neatly without any adverse speculation and in a timely manner. As Mark has said it is a win win situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_NZ Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Thank you to both John and Mark for the great work both have done on their respective products and for being upfront about the issue and being prepared to answer some straight questions. I hope that everything will work out as nicely, as smoothly, and as quickly for the good of all concerned - and that we can all carry on enjoying our flight-simming experience as we have become accustomed to - with two great addons - FTX and Mark's airfields. Now where are the tutorials on how to make our own airfields? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolter van der Spoel Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Now where are the tutorials on how to make our own airfields? you tryed Google ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Hall Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I guess everyone has agreed to disagree then. I will look forward to your future work Mark, for what its worth I enjoyed the little surprises. As an independent agent you can create to your hearts content. It is sad though as I felt that the publicity and distribution through orbx got your work out there to a larger audience. Lucky for me Ive heard about your stuff now and can keep track of where and when I can get it. I hope all concerned can remain friends and continue to find common ground to help each other out, as you guys enhanced each others product to the max, together it was an AWESOME combination, enough said, good luck to all. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Routley Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Good luck, Mark with your further endeavours. Certainly your contributions will be missed around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodH Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 I will prolly get burned for saying this but, we finally get some good, great aussie scenery and or team, & then it all turns to S%$*. :'( :'( It seem another hobby down the drain.... Was A member of XGN racing, we raced online GT legends and GTR2 online had servers a forum, a league going, It all went off line 6 0r 7 weeks ago, not a work of what's up nothing, this to me feels the same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted June 26, 2008 Author Share Posted June 26, 2008 I will prolly get burned for saying this but, we finally get some good, great aussie scenery and or team, & then it all turns to S%$*. :'( :'( It seem another hobby down the drain.... Was A member of XGN racing, we raced online GT legends and GTR2 online had servers a forum, a league going, It all went off line 6 0r 7 weeks ago, not a work of what's up nothing, this to me feels the same... Burn Rod, burn!!! Seriously, nothing has turned to S$^ - you'll still be able to get all of Mark's airports wherever his new download home will be; and Orbx will still be publishing hundreds of freeware airports over the coming months and years like we've planned to do. Downloading a seperately published installer and maintaining a seperate scenery library entry is not going to cause too much pain for people really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GaryVH-GJB Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 As far as I am concerned Mark...keep up the great work mate and don't go changing a thing.....I love your airfields and if there is other stuff to see well thats a bonus....but to be totally honest I have never even noticed the stuff in question until turnip pointed it out hehehehe...no big deal, its all good...just watch SBS at night. Anywho just keep doing what you are doing mate...for what it is worth you have my support. Gary VH-GJB Canberra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_NZ Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 Now where are the tutorials on how to make our own airfields? you tryed Google ? Google? Google...? Name sounds familiar, can't place it though.... gimmie a minute.... Ah I know! That's something akin to reading the manual isn't it? Bugger that for a game of soldiers! (Seriously, I thought someone around here was preparing a tutorial, a bit more FTX specific perhaps, last I knew it was in the hands of Orbx) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted June 26, 2008 Author Share Posted June 26, 2008 Yep the tutorial is almost done; we just need to add the night lighting bits to it and then we're good to go. Sorry about the delay on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrajag Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 For those of you worried about finding anything nasty: there were just the nudes at Tyagarah and Noosa, a parachuteless skydiver at YTYH, a dingo with a Cupie doll in his mouth on Fraser Is, 2 3-D people very close together at Canungra and some UKVFR cows on the start of a runway at Aratula. There may be some other things, too - but if you steer clear of those places you should be pretty safe. Oops, I forgot: there's a lady moonwalking at Dunwich and some birds on approach at one or two strips. hehe. the nudes aren't to my taste but hey, I certainly don't feel that strongly about it and I have no right to complain anyway! The other bits though I really enjoyed. I couldn't believe the skydiver a few nights back, it is good to get a surprise in an otherwise sterile environment. Fortunately, gravity failed for him so he didn't hit the ground so I am sure he is all right ) It is fantastic to see how the issue has been resolved though and really, none of you should stress over it (easier said then done eh )), this is a hobby and no one is forcing anything down our throats. Steven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skypilot Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 Bummer. I downloaded it tonight before the link was removed and I got a CRC error with the file.....so it seems I've wasted 734mb of download for nothing. It seems if you power down/switch off /reboot your PC you will be able to extract the file. I think that's what worked for me and it seems others too so try that with your existing download. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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