noted LOWG - ILS 35C - LOC / GS Path is too far left near the Runway

[winstonwolf]

Hi there , 

First of all , thanks for this beautiful Airport. Very nice work :-)

Yesterday while ILS Approach on the 35C i noticed that the ILS Path is too far left near the Runway.

Is it an Problem from the Sim himself or from the Scenery ? 

Thanks 
 

[key-z659]

Hello!

 

ILS 35C Frequency is also missing while approaching Runway 35C in the Asobo Airbus A320.

 

Thanks!

[winstonwolf]

3 minutes ago, key-z659 said:

Hello!

 

ILS 35C Frequency is also missing while approaching Runway 35C in the Asobo Airbus A320.

 

Thanks!

 

Youre right . But this behaviour you have on many other Airports too. I set this Point on my Checklist to insert it manually . 
But the Strange thing is that the FMC knows for LOWG only the ILS 35 and not ILS35C . It shows in FMC 35L . 

 

[altenae]

Maybe it's just the same issue as other airports sometimes have

 

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/587035-why-why-can-i-not-capture-a-loc-ils-approach/

 

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/why-why-can-i-not-capture-a-loc-ils-approach/300422

 

 

[wolfko]

8 hours ago, winstonwolf said:

 

Youre right . But this behaviour you have on many other Airports too. I set this Point on my Checklist to insert it manually . 
But the Strange thing is that the FMC knows for LOWG only the ILS 35 and not ILS35C . It shows in FMC 35L . 

 

 

In real life LOWG has only one runway with ILS, which is 35C. 17C has not got an ILS and all the others are just grass runways.

[winstonwolf]

13 hours ago, wolfko said:

 

In real life LOWG has only one runway with ILS, which is 35C. 17C has not got an ILS and all the others are just grass runways.

 

Sorry - its not true . As u can see on the Airport Plan from LOWG there is another Runway 35L . And strangly enough the FMC only knows this . 
In FMC when u config the Arrival there is only one Runway and i think this is not the 35C rather there is the 35L. 

[Nick Cooper]

Hello,

I am not the expert here, but I think it unlikely that an airport would have a short grass runway fitted with an ILS at all,

let alone next to a long tarmac runway designed for airliners that did not have an ILS.

Of course, if you know better, then as this is only a game, you can land your airliner on the 760 metre long grass

runway and not suffer the real life consequences.

Based on previous posts, I had understood that the ILS here does not lead you to the runway, or indeed land the aircraft,

but I will take the word of the local expert.

[winstonwolf]

8 minutes ago, Nick Cooper said:

Hello,

I am not the expert here, but I think it unlikely that an airport would have a short grass runway fitted with an ILS at all,

let alone next to a long tarmac runway designed for airliners that did not have an ILS.

Of course, if you know better, then as this is only a game, you can land your airliner on the 760 metre long grass

runway and not suffer the real life consequences.

Based on previous posts, I had understood that the ILS here does not lead you to the runway, or indeed land the aircraft,

but I will take the word of the local expert.

 

Good Morning and Thanks Nick , 

Here i can show u an Screenshot from FS2020 how the Airport and his Runway appears . And you can see the Problem also in the FMC . The Airac is the newest for MFS2020 from Navigraph. When u choose the Runway in the FMC the there is only an 35 . But in the Flightplan the Runway appears as 35L. 

 

[Nick Cooper]

Does this indicate a problem with the airport, or does it indicate a problem with the aircraft's database?

It would seem a bit odd to be able to select a grass runway in that wouldn't it?

I must remind you that ILS and FMS are more or less a mystery to me.

[winstonwolf]

17 minutes ago, Nick Cooper said:

Does this indicate a problem with the airport, or does it indicate a problem with the aircraft's database?

It would seem a bit odd to be able to select a grass runway in that wouldn't it?

I must remind you that ILS and FMS are more or less a mystery to me.

Hmm, good Question . The FMS Database was based on the newest AIRAC Cycle from Navigraph . 
But i think the Position ofthe  ILS Transmitter is a part from the Airport. Its the Point where it is ositioned in the Scenery . 

[Nick Cooper]

There is much comment about how this is incorrect but as far as I remember, each time

someone complains that the airport ILS is not correct, someone from the real world comes

along and says that it is.

As I understand it from what I have read, the ILS does not "point" at the tarmac runway

because if it did, the approaching aircraft would have to fly through a mountain in order to follow it.

If it is offset to the left, it would most likely point towards the grass runway but I doubt that any

airline pilot would land on it.

My guess is that the aircraft is misreading the data.

[wolfko]

The appearance of 35L in the FMC is clearly an error in the Navigraph database. Since Navigraph sometimes interferes with a scenery itself, it could also be that Navigraph is responsible for the misplacement of the ILS station.

The following text is from the German speaking Wikipedia site about LOWG (translated by Google), which is much more accurate than the English speaking one. As you can read, there is definitely only one ILS equipped runway in Graz, which is indeed 35C.

-----------------------------------------------------

Runway system and navigation systems

Graz Airport has a central runway 3,000 m long and 45 m wide in a south-north orientation (17C-35C, as of 2011). There is a difference in altitude of -10 m between the southern and northern touchdown points. At the southern end this runway is widened by a turning area. Asphalt is used as the track surface. According to their load capacity classification (PCN 61, flexible surface, medium underground load capacity and tire pressure class without limit), aircraft up to the weight class of a huge Antonov An-124-100 can use the runway even when fully loaded. [7] It does not take into account whether the take-off distance is sufficient for a safe start in any case.

 

Landings on the 35C (from the south) and take-offs on the 17C (to the south) take place with a tailwind of up to around 18 km / h (~ 10 knots). [8] The reason for this lies in the location of the airport south of the city of Graz and the mountains beyond. So only the 35C runway is equipped with an ILS (Instrument Landing System). For reasons of noise protection, the Graz air traffic control center guides landing aircraft to the runway using radar support and vector information - precise altitude and direction information transmitted by radio.

 

In addition to the ILS, there is an optical approach support system (VASI, Visual Approach Slope Indicator) of the PAPI type (Precision Approach Path Indicator) in both directions, especially for visual pilots. A DVOR (Doppler VHF Omni Directional Radio Range), an NDB (Non-Directional Beacon) and a DME (Distance Measuring Equipment) complement the Airport navigation equipment. In 2014, a 77 GHz ground radar system was also installed to increase safety in fog, snow and rain.

 

To the east and west of this central runway there are two grass runways. These may only be used to a limited extent and are closed in winter. The 17L-35R is 640 m long and 30 m wide. The 17R-35L is 760 m × 25 m in size.

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

[wolfko]

7 minutes ago, Nick Cooper said:

As I understand it from what I have read, the ILS does not "point" at the tarmac runway

because if it did, the approaching aircraft would have to fly through a mountain in order to follow it.

 

 

Nick, I think, you are mixing this up with LOWI.

[Nick Cooper]

Yes, I think I am.

I was hoping that you would come along and clear this up.

Thanks for the clear explanation but it might have been fun to see the Airbus land on 35L.

[winstonwolf]

1 hour ago, Nick Cooper said:

Yes, I think I am.

I was hoping that you would come along and clear this up.

Thanks for the clear explanation but it might have been fun to see the Airbus land on 35L.

 

I open an Ticket at Navigraphs MFS2020 Support Forum . Lets wait what they answer. 

https://forum.navigraph.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10872

[winstonwolf]

The Main Problem at the Moment is that the most A320 virtual Pilotes in MFS2020 use the FlyByWire A320 Mode who turns the game into an Sim . 

But this is an Mode and Navigraphs first reaction was , oh we dont support Mods. 
The Second Point is that the Navigraphs MFS 2020 AIRACS are in Beta Phase. 

 

Here is an very interesting Post in the Navigraph Forum about the Future Collaboration between FlyByWire and Navigraph . 

https://forum.navigraph.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10830&start=10

 

[wolfko]

3 hours ago, winstonwolf said:

The Main Problem at the Moment is that the most A320 virtual Pilotes in MFS2020 use the FlyByWire A320 Mode who turns the game into an Sim . 

But this is an Mode and Navigraphs first reaction was , oh we dont support Mods. 
The Second Point is that the Navigraphs MFS 2020 AIRACS are in Beta Phase. 

 

Here is an very interesting Post in the Navigraph Forum about the Future Collaboration between FlyByWire and Navigraph . 

https://forum.navigraph.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10830&start=10

 

 

Thanks for the info. 

[winstonwolf]

Hi there , 

I have an answer from Navigraph which is very important and also brings up an new Bug from the Sim produced by Asobo . 

Here is the answer from Navigraph :

 

Re: A320 - LOWG Orbx wrong Runway for ILS 35

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Unread post by navdata » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:07 pm

Hi,
as you see in the worldmap (also in your picture) - the correct runway-ident is 17C/35C ... but in the A320-FMC you can´t add any center runway because ASOBO forgets the C-prefix in the FMCs (not only in the A320, also in the TBM930 or B787). Thats not an Orbx issue, nor a navdata issue but due the missing C-prefix, the procedures (which are included for LOWG) can´t be assigned to the correct runway-ident - which is 17C/35C.

In other words - sorry a bug in the sim. In worldmap the runway-idents are ok, but not in the FMCs - here the center-runways are all missing (KSEA, EDDF, LOWG, ... - all runways with a center runway). Sorry!

Kind regards,
Richard

[Nick Cooper]

Thanks.

I've marked the topic as noted, as it cannot be fixed by any third party developers.