Flaps Rules for a Cessna 177 Series Question

[JohnnyJohnJohn]

Okay, I know we use flaps and the throttle to help slow us down - but if we can get to the landing speed of 80kts for approach, how much flaps are really necessary?  Do we need full 20 degrees of flaps to be able to come to a halt on the runway or just use the brakes to help slow us down?

 

Thanks for the advice, I was really curious about that and looking forward to hearing some of the answers. 

[Jack Sawyer]

It all depends, first place I look is the POH, it'll tell you max flap speed deployment.  Also, how short is the runway?  How heavy is the plane?  There's so many factors.

[Ken Q]

Jack is absolutely right - check the POH.  POHs for many AC are available as PDF files online, and most FS aircraft are very close to prototype specs if not dead on.  The point of flaps is to lower the stall speed so you can touch down safely at the lowest possible ground speed, so wind velocity has lot do with flap setting too, especially with a cross wind. It's a somewhat complicated issue so find some instructional videos, and experiment.  After all, if you crash in FS, or have a really bad landing all that gets hurt is your ego.  Try rwy 12/30 at Nantucket (KACK) with a crosswind for a humbling experience.

Ken

 

[Doc_Z]

As a general rule, you need full flaps for landing.  The POH wull give you the flap deployment speeds.  Remember, even the big boys use full flaps to land. 

[Doc_Z]

As a general rule, you need full flaps for landing.  The POH wull give you the flap deployment speeds.  Remember, even the big boys use full flaps to land. 

[JohnnyJohnJohn]

1 hour ago, Jack Sawyer said:

It all depends, first place I look is the POH, it'll tell you max flap speed deployment.  Also, how short is the runway?  How heavy is the plane?  There's so many factors.

 

Thanks Jack.  I appreciate that info. I'll hunt down the POH for the Cardinal

 

17 minutes ago, Ken Q said:

Jack is absolutely right - check the POH.  POHs for many AC are available as PDF files online, and most FS aircraft are very close to prototype specs if not dead on.  The point of flaps is to lower the stall speed so you can touch down safely at the lowest possible ground speed, so wind velocity has lot do with flap setting too, especially with a cross wind. It's a somewhat complicated issue so find some instructional videos, and experiment.  After all, if you crash in FS, or have a really bad landing all that gets hurt is your ego.  Try rwy 12/30 at Nantucket (KACK) with a crosswind for a humbling experience.

Ken

 

 

Thanks Ken. I may have to do that....always like the humbling experiences that just knock my ego down a notch.  At least no expensive repair bills afterward either for the mechanic!  

 

5 minutes ago, Doc_Z said:

As a general rule, you need full flaps for landing.  The POH wull give you the flap deployment speeds.  Remember, even the big boys use full flaps to land. 

 

Thanks Doc.  I'll be downloading it.

 

[TerryM]

I fly one.....so here goes (based on an RG which has a slightly more powerful engine that the fixed)

 

Take off with one notch of flaps, retract undercarriage when no useful runway remains (cos those damn wheels cause a hell of a lot of drag) and climb out at 80Kts

 

As for flaps, VFE is 130Kts for 10 degs, 95 Kts for 20 degs,

 

When landing........

   On base, trim for 80Kts with 20 deg flaps,

   On final.... remember PUFF...... (P)ropellor full fine, (U)ndercarriage down, (F)laps 30 degs, Cowl (F)laps closed and trim for 75 Kts

   Short final: 70Kts

 

if landing without Flaps... short final is 70 - 80 Kts

 

Not much difference in speed..... but the difference in landing distance is quite substantial.... much longer without flaps

[Ken Q]

I like that acronym "PUFFS."  Another useful one is "GUMPS."  "Gas" (fullest tank) "Undercarriage"  (down)  "Mixture"  (Full rich) "Prop"  (High RPM) "Seat belts" (fastened - doesn't apply to a desktop sim, of course).  The two together cover it all, with prop and landing gear checked twice (can't check the gear too often - landing with it up can ruin your whole day).

 

Ken

[TerryM]

4 minutes ago, Ken Q said:

I like that acronym "PUFFS."  Another useful one is "GUMPS."  "Gas" (fullest tank) "Undercarriage"  (down)  "Mixture"  (Full rich) "Prop"  (High RPM) "Seat belts" (fastened - doesn't apply to a desktop sim, of course).  The two together cover it all, with prop and landing gear checked twice (can't check the gear too often - landing with it up can ruin your whole day).

 

Ken

yep...... need a hell of a lot more power to taxi back to parking with wheels up

 

Would normally do BUMFOH on downwind...Brakes, Undercarriage (down), mixture (rich), Fuel, Oil T&Ps, and Hatches/Harness secure

 

Like you said, not applicable to a desktop sim anyway, but helped with numbers for original poster

[Herman Ross]

This link will take you to the FAA's "Airplane Flying Handbook." Starting on page 8-4, you'll see a good discussion on the use (and non-use) of flaps and some interesting graphics. Chapter 8 in it's entirely is about landings. Because it's a good sized document, it will take a while to load, so don't be fooled when the first page looks blank. Just be patient. Because it's such a great source, I highly recommend downloading it as a .pdf so you'll have a handy version available.

[vanderlay]

The other thing with full flap is it allows the possibility of regulating the glide path a little more with throttle if need be rather than maybe ending up on short final a little too high and with an already closed throttle and no way of getting down. Also, a zero flap approach makes for a flatter approach and so this could introduce ground clearance issues at some bush strips.

[JohnnyJohnJohn]

On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 8:14 AM, tmarshall said:

I fly one.....so here goes (based on an RG which has a slightly more powerful engine that the fixed)

 

Take off with one notch of flaps, retract undercarriage when no useful runway remains (cos those damn wheels cause a hell of a lot of drag) and climb out at 80Kts

 

As for flaps, VFE is 130Kts for 10 degs, 95 Kts for 20 degs,

 

When landing........

   On base, trim for 80Kts with 20 deg flaps,

   On final.... remember PUFF...... (P)ropellor full fine, (U)ndercarriage down, (F)laps 30 degs, Cowl (F)laps closed and trim for 75 Kts

   Short final: 70Kts

 

if landing without Flaps... short final is 70 - 80 Kts

 

Not much difference in speed..... but the difference in landing distance is quite substantial.... much longer without flaps

Thank you so much for that information. Going to print this out actually so I can memorize it.....I fly with Oculus so I can't really have it on a sticky note, but I love that bird and intend to use it as much as possible like a real world aircraft.  You can only fly one in the real world, so I intend to make this my personal aircraft in Flight Sim.  May even have to do a template with my own special N Number.  

[TerryM]

its an easy one to get used to..... I'll send you a checklist for reference

[Turboarrow4]

Hi JJJ,

 

for your reference, please see attached PoH with the correct numbers for this bird. 

 

http://flyingclubkansascity.org/MembersArea/Manuals_files/Cessna 177 Manual.pdf

 

Cheers

Thorsten

 

 

[JohnnyJohnJohn]

1 hour ago, Turboarrow4 said:

Hi JJJ,

 

for your reference, please see attached PoH with the correct numbers for this bird. 

 

http://flyingclubkansascity.org/MembersArea/Manuals_files/Cessna 177 Manual.pdf

 

Cheers

Thorsten

 

 

 

8 hours ago, tmarshall said:

its an easy one to get used to..... I'll send you a checklist for reference

 

9 hours ago, vanderlay said:

The other thing with full flap is it allows the possibility of regulating the glide path a little more with throttle if need be rather than maybe ending up on short final a little too high and with an already closed throttle and no way of getting down. Also, a zero flap approach makes for a flatter approach and so this could introduce ground clearance issues at some bush strips.

 

On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 9:00 AM, tmarshall said:

yep...... need a hell of a lot more power to taxi back to parking with wheels up

 

Would normally do BUMFOH on downwind...Brakes, Undercarriage (down), mixture (rich), Fuel, Oil T&Ps, and Hatches/Harness secure

 

Like you said, not applicable to a desktop sim anyway, but helped with numbers for original poster

 

Thank you everyone for all this input and help - it was greatly appreciated.  Now I know the flaps are needed at full. I shall be using the RG model as well too now I believe with the C177 for the drag the wheels create. Don't need the drag!