pmb Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 I have to agree to Bruce. While no doubt we have to accept your decision, it makes me no doubt critically re-think my relation to DFS twice. I would have preferred sharing the burden of conversion between maker und customer. Kind regards, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 A reality check guys: DTG is a company that has to make profits for its shareholders, simple as that. It is unreasonable to assume that vendors such as Orbx and others are going to allow DTG to publish their addons as DLC and ask DTG to give them away for free to customers who purchased those addons on 32-bit platforms. When Sega, Sony and Nintendo moved from 32-bit hardware to 64-bit hardware, did all the games developers give their customers free or discounted copies of title ported to the new systems? Companies such as EA, Ubisoft, Codemasters etc have sold essentially the same titles up to ten times to the same customers due to changes in console hardware or a new year passing. I don't remember being offered F1 2012 for free just because I had bought F1 2008 four years earlier. By the same token we don't expect customers who are very happy with P3Dv3.x and have invested many thousands in Orbx addons to simply abandon that sim and their investment in licenses on the day DFS is released. I know many of them will buy DFS to experience 64-bit / DX11 for themselves, but their investment in DLC will be gradual as the new sim matures and wins the minds and hearts of very hard-to-please simmers. Here's something that may surprise you all: has it not occurred to you that hard-core simmers are not the #1 target demographic for DTG? Their target is the 140 million Steam accounts and Flight School is the vehicle on getting 'bums on seats' so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banjoman1960 Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 39 minutes ago, John Venema said: By the same token we don't expect customers who are very happy with P3Dv3.x and have invested many thousands in Orbx addons to simply abandon that sim and their investment in licenses on the day DFS is released. I know many of them will buy DFS to experience 64-bit / DX11 for themselves, but their investment in DLC will be gradual as the new sim matures and wins the minds and hearts of very hard-to-please simmers. That´s wat i will do.when i read about the new sim,it is not open to freeware developers, i will install and use it as is,and do not waste more money in this. also i will wait wat p3d will offer in future.......... cheers Ralf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabble Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 It seems fair to me that if a piece of software (including scenery/DLC) costs X to produce, then it can be sold at X + reasonable profit. Market force will determine if that means sales or not. I also have (almost) all of Orbx, and I welcome the attempt to create a new sim and that Orbx is a major provider of scenery assets. Of course. whether or not I buy will depend on a number of factors, for example: Is the new sim good enough for me to jump to a new platform? Is the new scenery good enough to persuade me to part with my money? Is there an open SDK and an unrestricted route to providing 3rd party addons (including freeware) so that a community grows up as with FSX/P3D? I don't see the fact that it's on Steam a problem, necessarily - many Steam games have 3rd-party addons, very much including freeware e.g via mod managers. If the scenery addons are essentially new products to take advantage of the new capabilities, then I don't see them as simple upgrades, and I sure can't begrudge that they have to be purchased. What if the scenery DLCs don't even have the same boundaries/coverage as the current FSX/P3D packages? Any shift to the new sim would be gradual anyway, as addons take time to produce. However, any sweeteners for existing users (while still allowing reasonable profit) would be rather good for customer relations. As JV says, the main target of the new sim may be new blood from the Steam customer base, rather than existing simmers. However, I also reckon it would be unwise to not keep existing simmers on board too, as our pockets tend to be deep. I'd like to see new blood being added to the community, not replacing it. I remain open minded. Edit: I refer to the new DTFS, not Flight School which I'm aware is closed to 3rd-party addons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aero-3fsx Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 3 hours ago, John Venema said: DFS is a line in the sand for us, because it will cost time and money to create DLC. I fully support this view as I believe OrbX were fully justified in charging for those multiple installers but didn't. Drawing a line makes it clear we should stick with P3D if we don't want to "repurchase" sceneries When P3D finally goes 64bit then I fully expect to pay at least most of the cost if not the full cost of the 64bit version of what I already own If we are patient then P3D will catch up and maybe surpass what DFS is offering As John said, DFS is aimed at Steam gamers who don't care much about ATC, Navigation and a lot of other features but want a good experience Dovetail is aiming at entertainment as a first priority and then we flight simmers are way down the line somewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MZee1960 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 You had me at 64 bit and greatly improved VAS utilization, with DX11 and improved higher texture quality as bonuses. Seems only a year ago, everyone was talking about what a big step forward a 64 bit sim platform would be. In my opinion, if one wants a sturdy skyscraper .... then one has to start with a solid foundation. One cannot expect to simply keep adding more floors to an existing building without it eventually giving way and collapsing under all the new, added stress which is exactly what is happening to our 32 bit platforms as we forever try to devise ways to run them faster, while piling on more complex addons. You cannot make a new building out of an old one, but when the old one starts to show cracks, you can use those cracks to educate yourself enough to prevent the same from happening in the new construction. A 64 bit platform ? Best news in years ! ...... actually been a decade right about now ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Clarke Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Regarding 64 bit P3D conjecture, would not all our Orbx products have to be re worked and a "new" product produced to work in 64 bit? I am assuming Yes is the answer and therefore we would potentially end up with 3 choices of Sim. 1, P3D/FSX in 32 bit with all our currently purchased addons working and therefore no extra cost. 2, P3D 64 bit + additional addon costs if developers back the new version, DFS + additional addon DLC costs. We end up choosing which suits us best. As for the new sim DFS, it is going to be very difficult to judge it's full potential until you run it with as many different addons as we currently run P3D/FSX with. Out of the box, all flight sims have performed very well and we only begin to see their limitations once we start piling more and more sophisticated addons to them. DFS will come with an enhanced version of Global textures as default which JV has also announced will be an upgrade to Global being offered to our current sims shortly. I imagine that that will be it for quite a while until Orbx and others start to kick out compatible addons so there will be a hiatus regarding seeing the effects of 64 bit capabilities and system performance levels. In conclusion, and correct me if i am wrong, we are in a situation where we choose P3D/FSX 32 bit with loads of working addons or we go DFS 64 bit with initially restricted addons and extra costs, or we wait for P3D 64 bit with no addons and extra costs if developers decide to make 64 bit compatible addons for P3D, which will probably not be compatible with DFS 64 bit. I might have to have a word with my Bank manager ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MZee1960 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 9 hours ago, jjaycee1 said: As for the new sim DFS, it is going to be very difficult to judge it's full potential until you run it with as many different addons as we currently run P3D/FSX with. Out of the box, all flight sims have performed very well and we only begin to see their limitations once we start piling more and more sophisticated addons to them. The hope here is that Dovetail will finally come out with an 'out of the box' sim platform which would already be fully compatible with the most popular addons (scenery, AI traffic , weather, aircraft ......) , but would require absolutely no config file or general appearance tweaks, ........ all of which are very, time-consuming 'band-aid' solutions to a common goal - making the sim look and perform as close to 'real life' as possible. Furthermore, there is now the golden opportunity to put the 'other' cores in a multicore system 'to work' as opposed to having most of the 'work' handled by the one. ( I am not a fan of the 'AffinityMask' bandage brand, as u can tell.). The next generation of CPU's (starting with the Broadwell E 10 core monster) will be ripe for the picking, should this be the case. Flight sim, is a business for many, and is rapidly growing as a hobby for so many more. Any developer who would put out a new sim platform which 'would not play nice' with other's addons would essentially be leaving the business door half closed. Surely, there will be some growing pains, as addon developers align themselves with the new platform, but the return on investment I see as bright as the sun. As for the existing sim platforms ........ IMHO they aren't going anywhere anytime soon, as everyone in the community has just too much time, money, and hours in development invested in them. After all, we still listen to records, don't we ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmb Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 6 minutes ago, MZee1960 said: The hope here is that Dovetail will finally come out with an 'out of the box' sim platform which would already be fully compatible with the most popular addons (scenery, AI traffic , weather, aircraft ......) , but would require absolutely no config file tweaks, Please, re-read John's contributions in this thread, and you can be sure this NOT to happen because of (at least) two reasons: (i) 64 bit architecture, (ii) addon distribution regulated via Steam/Win(10) Store only. As far as I understand, none of our beloved addons will run, as long as the makers didn't adapt them to the two facts above, i.e., recompile all binary components for 64 bit and repackage them for distribution via Steam/WinStore. And we did't speak about adaptation to different elevations models, lanclasses etc. yet. As I understand further, at least ORBX will have users to pay the full price for the converted addons, even if they own the FSX/P3D versions. I hope I didn't misunderstand something and apologize in this case. Kind regards, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 Michael, please refrain from cutting and pasting my replies to various AVSIM and other forum threads, it's been brought to my attention by a number of people and I'd prefer that if anyone wants to read my comments that they do so as a registered Orbx FTX forum member, and not see isolated snippets of my comments presented in some a la carte fashion which may be misconstrued or misinterpreted out of their original context. Can I have your cooperation on this please? Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aero-3fsx Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, John Venema said: Michael, please refrain from cutting and pasting my replies to various AVSIM and other forum threads, I assume you mean pmb. I have quoted you a few times on FlyInside but only there. I will be more careful in future. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabble Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 7 minutes ago, pmb said: As I understand further, at least ORBX will have users to pay the full price for the converted addons, even if they own the FSX/P3D versions. My understanding was that addons would not be conversions, but new products which make use of the new capabilities, e.g. far greater landclass variation which would have to be created/compiled from scratch. Just as my ownership of FSX didn't entitle me to a discount when buying P3D or FSX:SE (where there is substantial code re-use), I don't see that my ownership of a FSX/P3D scenery should entitle me to a discount of a new-build scenery which happens to cover the same geographic area. Of course it would be nice , but that's not the same as entitlement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aero-3fsx Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 36 minutes ago, MZee1960 said: The hope here is that Dovetail will finally come out with an 'out of the box' sim platform which would already be fully compatible with the most popular addons Hope you may, but DFS main market is gamers who are mostly totally unaware of what addons are available so compatibility with existing addons is low priority for Dovetail. 38 minutes ago, MZee1960 said: After all, we still listen to records, don't we ? As far as listening to records, I haven't even played a CD in years. All CDs in basement and digital music on my Samsung phone and computer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmb Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 15 minutes ago, John Venema said: Michael, please refrain from cutting and pasting my replies to various AVSIM and other forum threads, it's been brought to my attention by a number of people and I'd prefer that if anyone wants to read my comments that they do so as a registered Orbx FTX forum member, and not see isolated snippets of my comments presented in some a la carte fashion which may be misconstrued or misinterpreted out of their original context. Can I have your cooperation on this please? Thank you! I am sorry, but as you can see in the corresponding AVSIM thread (http://www.avsim.com/topic/485291-dtg-flight-school-certainly-not-not-for-us-simmers/page-3) I first gave a link only to the your ORBX forum contribution to put it into context. Next the moderator warned me that would be unfair to those without access to the ORBX forums, thus I quoted the contibution in full just to avoid putting the two sentences out of context. Sometimes it's hard to comply with all these regulations, but I'll try to do better. Kind regards, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 It's not unfair to those 'without access' because everyone is welcome to register and read topics relevant to our customers. If people are not bothered to register then they don't deserve to be informed directly from the source. Thanks for your understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MZee1960 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 1 hour ago, pmb said: Please, re-read John's contributions in this thread, and you can be sure this NOT to happen because of (at least) two reasons: (i) 64 bit architecture, (ii) addon distribution regulated via Steam/Win(10) Store only. As far as I understand, none of our beloved addons will run, as long as the makers didn't adapt them to the two facts above, i.e., recompile all binary components for 64 bit and repackage them for distribution via Steam/WinStore. And we did't speak about adaptation to different elevations models, lanclasses etc. yet. As I understand further, at least ORBX will have users to pay the full price for the converted addons, even if they own the FSX/P3D versions. I hope I didn't misunderstand something and apologize in this case. Hi Michael, DTG plans to release, as I understand it, two flightsim programs in the next year. One is Flight School ( a closed out of the box locked program with no available addons, just like MS Flight ) ; the other is DTG FS (a much later release), which is the one I was referring to all along in my post above. DTG FS , according to DTG will be 'open' to third party addons, but mind you, it will come at a cost as all addons will have to be re-purchased as 64 bit versions, which is a given. As for distribution through Steam/W10 Store ..... probably too early to speculate what or what will not occur, but why would DTG close the door on any feasible business partnership ? Hopefully this added more clarity to my previous post, and I apologize for any misunderstanding this had caused. Regardless of what happens in the next several months, DTG Flight School will definitely wet our appetites for 64 bit flight sim platforms, the main course coming later with DTG FS, and this will I am sure be followed by other developers like LM. "Just glad to hear a 64 bit program is in the works." Cheers, MZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sightseer Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Im actually feeling very hopeful again about both new DTG offerings. Orbx ground scenery is the default. people have been saying how great that would be for years. I listened to the latest hour long interview with Steve Hood - interviewed by Jordan King - (latest as of March 21 2016) and he's talking about the importance of ATC and how there will be different flight schools - one in the US and one somewhere else. Id bet Orbx is doing these airfields and surrounding scenery as well. it just makes sense. The two planes for flight school are the Piper J3 cub and the Piper PA -28?(I think). Theres not a mention of icon or trike (both of which are lovely addons but not for learning to fly IMO). (Apologies to the Icon lovers - I dont know why that plane irritates me...even FSX started with a trike over friday Harbour and some basic lessons used the trike.) The addon developers have gained market share and market force over the years. DTG would be shooting themselves in the foot to not trend the flight sim direction towards the needs and wants of those who currently enjoy the addons already available. They put Orbx scenery as default and they are working closely with Orbx. Steve Hood mentions A2A as well in that interview. I think good things are in the works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertPilot Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 I am among those who have the entire collection of Orbx sceneries, including the latest one, Sandane (ENSD). However, I have not really viewed my purchases of Orbx sceneries (and various other 3rd party addons) as "investments" intended to last forever. They, along with P3Dv3, are just among the latest and greatest available today. Over the past 30 years, I've went through about a dozen computers (both desktop/tower PCs and notebooks), costing many thousands of dollars over time. And the same is true for various items in our lives--TVs, cameras, smartphones, appliances, cars, and so on. None of those lasts forever, that's my main point here. I'm buying the latest Orbx products as something to enjoy over the next 2-3 years with P3D. But I very much look forward to the new innovations coming up in future flight simulators along with supporting addons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmb Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Here are a few facts: - Nowhere did I demand new DFS developments for free. - Nowhere did I demand updates for free. - I would have found it a nice gesture to long-standing customers to get a rebate for "PNW for DFS" or "Lake Tahoe for DFS" style converted sceneries should they ever appear. - I understand conversion does make cost. Because of this I favored an upgrade fee for the P3D conversions already. A forum search should provide corresponding posts by me. However, I understand being a minority of one with an obviously wrong position. I will drop out of this thread, thus no need to remind me once more. Kind regards, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 And on that note we've covered all there is to say about the announcement and will retire this topic now. If there are any specific questions that have not been covered please start a new topic about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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