ANSWERED PAKT triple : a 3rd issue no PAPI

[dominique]

The 4 light PAPI not showing in my P3DV2.5.  From what I see in my sim, it seems that the release of the triple was a little premature.

[Ed Correia]

The PAPI light system that is in FSX is not compatible with P3Dv2 as it uses FS9 tech.

 

I recall Russ used this method due to the difficulties he faced (from his 3d model) placing the PAPI in the original version. So this a known limitation and I cannot see it being fixed, sorry.

[dominique]

The PAPI light system that is in FSX is not compatible with P3Dv2 as it uses FS9 tech.

 

Hi Ed

 

It seems from another post from a FSX user  that the PAPI is not showing in FSX triple  either.

[wulfbindewald]

FSX: No PAPI lights visible in the former and actual Version.

 

I found a technical explanation in a mail from Russ White http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/41818-pakt-landing-lights-are-not-being-reflected-on-the-runway/?hl=%2Bpakt+%2Bpapi#entry366566 where he explains the scenery specifics.

I guess we have to accept that as Ed already mentionend. 

 

Posted 29 January 2012 - 07:24 PM

".......That is just the way it is,
What you are landing on, and taxi-ing on, is not terrain mesh, it's one huge model (the same way building sare made only WAY more complex) and FSX lights do not 'spill' onto models, they only work with terrain. The airport could not be made like this with terrain, it has to be a model because of the elevation differences and the accuracy required, so unfortunately the landing lights will not 'light it up'. It's the same reason the PAPI system wont work at this airport...
Russ.   ....."

[Ed Correia]

FSX: No PAPI lights visible in the former and actual Version.

 

I found a technical explanation in a mail from Russ White http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/41818-pakt-landing-lights-are-not-being-reflected-on-the-runway/?hl=%2Bpakt+%2Bpapi#entry366566 where he explains the scenery specifics.

I guess we have to accept that as Ed already mentionend. 

 

Posted 29 January 2012 - 07:24 PM

".......That is just the way it is,

What you are landing on, and taxi-ing on, is not terrain mesh, it's one huge model (the same way building sare made only WAY more complex) and FSX lights do not 'spill' onto models, they only work with terrain. The airport could not be made like this with terrain, it has to be a model because of the elevation differences and the accuracy required, so unfortunately the landing lights will not 'light it up'. It's the same reason the PAPI system wont work at this airport...

Russ.   ....."

 

Thanks, now I remember, I made the models for Russ but he could not get them to work due to drawing issues.

[fltsimguy]

Does this suggest that making scenery as a "model" is not a good idea for the future?

[Alex Goff]

Does this suggest that making scenery as a "model" is not a good idea for the future?

It's inherently more difficult on just about every front. But also the only way to depict airports that have large elevation differences inside the fence or very sloped surfaces.

[dominique]

It's inherently more difficult on just about every front. But also the only way to depict airports that have large elevation differences inside the fence or very sloped surfaces.

Sorry for a very naive question, Alex. Resampling the mesh to a finer grain and elevate selected points is not possible in the FS world ?  That was possible as far as I remember with Fly! which had .txt formatted files. That was a trial and errors process (no WYSIWYG) but fine tuning was possible to a certain extent.

[Alex Goff]

It's possible, but it runs into the very same issues as building the terrain into a 3d model. It also runs the issue of ground polygons not being able to work on multi-elevation terrain, they can either be flat or the runway can be built into a 3D model.

Many underlying airport elements like taxiways, runways, parking spaces, and PAPI lights cannot be at multiple elevation points. FSX/P3D have a single elevation point for an airport and all of the invisible bits are at that altitude. So the standard default PAPI would either float, be underground, or be in place while everything else is off. Likewise AI would taxi around at the wrong altitudes. The simulators are very averse to any sort of multi-elevation airport.

FS9 had custom PAPI lights that could be placed independently but they do not work in Prepar3D. Just one of many fun issues when working with airport elevations

[fltsimguy]

Thanks guys very helpful to understand the detail behind the issue.

[dominique]

It's possible, but it runs into the very same issues as building the terrain into a 3d model. It also runs the issue of ground polygons not being able to work on multi-elevation terrain, they can either be flat or the runway can be built into a 3D model.

Many underlying airport elements like taxiways, runways, parking spaces, and PAPI lights cannot be at multiple elevation points. FSX/P3D have a single elevation point for an airport and all of the invisible bits are at that altitude. So the standard default PAPI would either float, be underground, or be in place while everything else is off. Likewise AI would taxi around at the wrong altitudes. The simulators are very averse to any sort of multi-elevation airport.

FS9 had custom PAPI lights that could be placed independently but they do not work in Prepar3D. Just one of many fun issues when working with airport elevations

Thank you, Alex, for taking the time. I always appreciate your post explaining the designers point of view. Food for thoughts for us  ! I installed PAPI lights along 29 with IS3 at the right height (varying for each of the four)  but they indeed didn't lit up. I suppose that they need to be activated but ADE doesnt find the airport bgl to activate the specific runway tab... So tweaking is out of bounds.

 

In that case, would it be a problem if, as far as defining the airport elevation is concerned,  the airport was limited to the new runway on the model prop (plus a small fringe border) and the rest of the airport considered as normal scenery ? I see a problem with the AI of course but else ? Wouldn't it solve the lighting and PAPI issues ?

[Greg Jones]

Thank you, Alex, for taking the time. I always appreciate your post explaining the designers point of view. Food for thoughts for us  ! I installed PAPI lights along 29 with IS3 at the right height (varying for each of the four)  but they indeed didn't lit up. I suppose that they need to be activated but ADE doesnt find the airport bgl to activate the specific runway tab... So tweaking is out of bounds.

 

In that case, would it be a problem if, as far as defining the airport elevation is concerned,  the airport was limited to the new runway on the model prop (plus a small fringe border) and the rest of the airport considered as normal scenery ? I see a problem with the AI of course but else ? Wouldn't it solve the lighting and PAPI issues ?

 

Sorry I must have missed this thread.

 

What you're describing Dominique makes sense however the PAPI light and runway light issue would most likely remain. The root of the problem is the fact that 'effect' lights (such as those used in default runways and PAPI systems) aren;t sorter in the same way as they were in FSX. This means that a light placed on top of a ground polygon or model won't be visible correctly, if at all.

 

As you've no doubt noticed, those airports produced since the release of P3D v2.4 use a different type of lighting to overcome this issue. Unfortunately that method can't be applied to approach lighting.

 

At the time PAKT was - and indeed remains - quite revolutionary. A large number of compromises were made to accommodate the uneven terrain, taxiways and aprons and other shortcomings of FSX. Unfortunately, many of those compromises just aren't available to us in P3Dv2. As Ed and Alex have explained, the older PAPI lights that used FS9 coding which could be adapted to just about any scenario no longer works. 

 

As Alex pointed out, FSX/P3D only allows for a single elevation across the entire airport therefore even if the PAPI did work in this case you wouldn't be able to implement taxiways or parking  - they would be floating in midair.

 

The other issues reported are being fixed as I write this.

 

Cheers,

 

Greg

[dominique]

Sorry I must have missed this thread.

 

What you're describing Dominique makes sense however the PAPI light and runway light issue would most likely remain. The root of the problem is the fact that 'effect' lights (such as those used in default runways and PAPI systems) aren;t sorter in the same way as they were in FSX. This means that a light placed on top of a ground polygon or model won't be visible correctly, if at all.

 

As you've no doubt noticed, those airports produced since the release of P3D v2.4 use a different type of lighting to overcome this issue. Unfortunately that method can't be applied to approach lighting.

 

At the time PAKT was - and indeed remains - quite revolutionary. A large number of compromises were made to accommodate the uneven terrain, taxiways and aprons and other shortcomings of FSX. Unfortunately, many of those compromises just aren't available to us in P3Dv2. As Ed and Alex have explained, the older PAPI lights that used FS9 coding which could be adapted to just about any scenario no longer works. 

 

As Alex pointed out, FSX/P3D only allows for a single elevation across the entire airport therefore even if the PAPI did work in this case you wouldn't be able to implement taxiways or parking  - they would be floating in midair.

 

The other issues reported are being fixed as I write this.

 

Cheers,

 

Greg

Thank you Greg for shedding more light (pun non intended) on the PAPI issue. Looking forward to the new patch of PAKT.

[RCFlyer]

Does this "model" issue also effect the availability of parking ramps and gates when one is using the "go to airport" menu?  When I use the "go to airport" menu and select PAKT the only options for placement of the aircraft is either the "active runway" or the various runway thresholds.  There are no parking ramps or gate listed.

 

Danny

 

PAKT, FSS0157785

[Stewart Hobson]

Does this "model" issue also effect the availability of parking ramps and gates when one is using the "go to airport" menu?  When I use the "go to airport" menu and select PAKT the only options for placement of the aircraft is either the "active runway" or the various runway thresholds.  There are no parking ramps or gate listed.

 

Danny

 

PAKT, FSS0157785

Try options "1" or "2" for either the gate or the parking ramp.

[RCFlyer]

Try options "1" or "2" for either the gate or the parking ramp.

Thanks Stewart for the suggestion.  I can't seem to find in this thread what Options 1 or 2 happen to be.  Would you please clarify?

 

Thanks

[Stewart Hobson]

Thanks Stewart for the suggestion.  I can't seem to find in this thread what Options 1 or 2 happen to be.  Would you please clarify?

 

Thanks

Sure:  Select "1" and you're at the terminal; "2" you're over at the parking ramp on the lower level.  Choose either of these two instead of the runway(s) 11/29.

[RCFlyer]

Got it.  Tried those and had similar experience as others with the corrupted graphics.  

 

Thanks again.

[Baeriken]

Sorry I must have missed this thread.

 

What you're describing Dominique makes sense however the PAPI light and runway light issue would most likely remain. The root of the problem is the fact that 'effect' lights (such as those used in default runways and PAPI systems) aren;t sorter in the same way as they were in FSX. This means that a light placed on top of a ground polygon or model won't be visible correctly, if at all.

 

As you've no doubt noticed, those airports produced since the release of P3D v2.4 use a different type of lighting to overcome this issue. Unfortunately that method can't be applied to approach lighting.

 

At the time PAKT was - and indeed remains - quite revolutionary. A large number of compromises were made to accommodate the uneven terrain, taxiways and aprons and other shortcomings of FSX. Unfortunately, many of those compromises just aren't available to us in P3Dv2. As Ed and Alex have explained, the older PAPI lights that used FS9 coding which could be adapted to just about any scenario no longer works. 

 

As Alex pointed out, FSX/P3D only allows for a single elevation across the entire airport therefore even if the PAPI did work in this case you wouldn't be able to implement taxiways or parking  - they would be floating in midair.

 

The other issues reported are being fixed as I write this.

 

Cheers,

 

Greg

 

Hallo Greg,

sorry I´m a completely beginner here in the forum. Hopefully I understand it right: You (or other in ORBX) are working on a solution for the PAPI-Light-Problem for PAKT for a P3D 2.5 Version or not?

 

Regards

 

Nick