FILOU Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 It's difficult sometimes for me with FSX to imagine be a real pilot, in the real plane ,in the real sky in the real and natural light ! When i see P3D videos... is the same thing ! For example when i see this video ( i am not talking about this game) just about the global atmosphere...i feel to fly inside the real sky etc......What's the little things make the big difference... Thanks >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9KhTmiCc5w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirit_66 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 ...... For example when i see this video ( i am not talking about this game) just about the global atmosphere...i feel to fly inside the real sky etc......What's the little things make the big difference... Thanks..... Really different? I can't see any difference. It's nice looking but FSX/DX10 and P3D v2.2 are also very good looking. Spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FILOU Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 Thanks a lot for your reply. Off course FSX and P3D with ORBX looking very good...but the looking it's one thing...the feeling a another one thing.I need both! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirit_66 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Thanks a lot for your reply. Off course FSX and P3D with ORBX looking very good...but the looking it's one thing...the feeling a another one thing.I need both! Hi, just thinking that I understand what you mean but I've with all FS never the feeling of reality. Missing too many things what I would have in reality. Spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticBeauty Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 It's the flight dynamics. It's not just the graphics that play a role in the immersion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandy Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Also the scenery must give you a sense of altitude, that feeling of being really high up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac_Maddog88 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 It's the flight dynamics. It's not just the graphics that play a role in the immersion. Yeah, they seen better than in FSX. That's what people always said was the real selling point of X-Plane. Well, guess it's time to go over to A2A and get Accufeel or whatever i'ts called that they make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirit_66 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 ..... That's what people always said was the real selling point of X-Plane..... Didn't get any of that feeling when I tried it. Spirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FILOU Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 Thanks a lot for all your comments! I was watching this video 10 times after my first comment in this section and i know exactly now what i need... 1) I agree with "gandy" !!! / "the scenery must give you a sense of altitude ".It 's exactly what i don't feel in FSX ! 2) I agree with "ChaoticBeauty" / "flight dynamics" it's exactly what i don't feel in FSX 3) For me the light in this video look very real ! It's 3 small things that make the big difference! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vora Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 In this specific video it is also the formation flying in a full glass cockpit what makes it immersive. Having a permanent reference point flying next to you gives you an additional 3-D feeling. You can see yourself climbing and descending relative to the other planes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FILOU Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 I agree with you too Volker!...Before it was FSX and now P3D (Very good,it's only what we have!) but how long should i wait again to really see a noticeable difference whitout GTX Titan Z.I am very happy with ORBX but he can not do all the work...When i see other new games in 2014 you can play with 500 euros video game console... when i come back in FSX or when i look P3D video i have the impression of being in the middle ages.Am i asking too much ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabby Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 My first reaction to seeing all those German bombers was to shoot them down with a head-on pass in my P-47 My other reaction is my P3D v2.2 with Orbx+REX4 + A2A Cherokee/Carenado Arrow look at least as well as that video and in many respects far better. In fact the only thing that the video has that is better are the cirrus clouds. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvs193 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Obviously the scenery needs to look realistic, but in my opinion, the single biggest factor that affects immersion/realism is the weather and associated lighting effects. Realistic haze, believable clouds, a setting sun with long shadows on the ground and so on, can literally change the "atmosphere" of the sim. Realistic water effects can contribute a lot too, to either making it look more real or less. There are times when FSX looks obviously fake, and others when I can almost believe I'm looking at the real thing. I've just bought Rex 4 and Active Sky Next, but haven't installed them yet. I'm expecting/hoping that they will make a huge improvement to the atmosphere of the game, quite literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabby Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I've just bought Rex 4 and Active Sky Next, but haven't installed them yet. I'm expecting/hoping that they will make a huge improvement to the atmosphere of the game, quite literally. It will, believe me. Just concluded a sunset flight into SFO from Ukiah and with FTX NCA + REX4(no weather engine yet so i made my own wealther)with a REX4 theme that had the exact sky coloring as a Summer evening in the Bay Area. I made a low level stratus layer to mimic the famous North Coast fog bank to go with the high altiude cirrus, the stars, and the reddish, hazy atmosphere over the East Bay as the sun disappeared to the West. Get as many FTX Regions you can afford, FTX Global for the rest, and REX4 for weather textures. I'm content to wait on the new weather engine for P3D from REX for the time being. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvs193 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 It will, believe me. Just concluded a sunset flight into SFO from Ukiah and with FTX NCA + REX4(no weather engine yet so i made my own wealther)with a REX4 theme that had the exact sky coloring as a Summer evening in the Bay Area. I made a low level stratus layer to mimic the famous North Coast fog bank to go with the high altiude cirrus, the stars, and the reddish, hazy atmosphere over the East Bay as the sun disappeared to the West. Get as many FTX Regions you can afford, FTX Global for the rest, and REX4 for weather textures. I'm content to wait on the new weather engine for P3D from REX for the time being. Glad to hear it, I'm looking forward to it. Your flight sounds great. I experienced many a good sunset using Active Sky X years ago when it first came out. I've always liked flying in real time and real weather when practical. I've already bought most of the regions in the current sale. I'll buy a couple more too, making that all of them except NCA. I don't have Global yet. I don't see much point since the areas I'm most interested in (UK, NZ and BC) are already covered by regions. Besides the landclass isn't available yet, and detailed landclass is pretty important to me. I'll probably buy it later when the Europe landclass comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticBeauty Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 1) I agree with "gandy" !!! / "the scenery must give you a sense of altitude ".It 's exactly what i don't feel in FSX ! I don't think that would be the scenery's fault, but the way the simulator renders the atmosphere. I feel X-Plane does that much better, whenever I watch an X-Plane video I really get the feeling that the scenery is far away from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonman Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I second Filou - mainly in regards to atmosphere, lighting and shadowing in FSX/P3D. There even is a quite long thread over at the P3D forums itself, entitled "brighter sun...", where the possible need for reshaping lighting and shadowing in P3D is widely discussed by many users. http://www.prepar3d.com/forum-5/?mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=6375 Now although no official statement on that particular "issue" is provided there by the developers, the length of the thread itself makes it obvious somehow, that there seems to be some serious demand for "reshaping the atmospheric lighting" in P3D (not mentioning FSX now, as it is not being further developed anymore - ... and so be it) I also think that the atmospheric lighting in P3D requires some more "fine-tuning" to really become more immersive and vital. I mean, with the "Raleigh Tweak" for instance (as it is also mentioned in the P3D link posted just here above), the lighting in XPlane for instance looks and appears really immersive and amazing (not to mention the atmosphere in newer platforms such as Outerra or the small little flightsim AeroflyFS). Now before any misunderstandings occure: Nothing wrong with P3D and i am totally aware of the fact that atmospheric and dynamic lighting and shadowing (or however we may call it exactly) is a huge challange for any developer team - so no one feel insulted here please - but: This is just a kind wish and hoping from my side as well, that in one of the next development-steps of P3D, this "issue" may be again adressed by the developerteam at LM. No more, but sure: No less either ... Other than that i think that using either OPUS or ASN for weather and some dedicated REX textures in combination with TrackIR and some camera tool for DHM and various views, as well as some SweetFX or ENB presets, some dedicated A/C add-ons ... some dedicated high quality sceneries ... some dedicated onlie ATC guidance ... and so on ... really make flying in FSX/P3D quite a great experience! But sure: Over a longer period the entire "core egine" of FSX/P3D with its current landclass system and much more certainly need to be largely redisigned - but: Isn't that exactly what LM does at the moment with P3D anyways? So let's see where all this is heading to ... One thing is clear though: The more P3D advances with each update, the more it will differ from FSX and the more it will be a completely new "stand alone" simming platform. Maybe not in the very near future, but for sure over a little longer period of time ... Anyways: Getting a bit off topic here now though, so i better stop right away ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FILOU Posted June 23, 2014 Author Share Posted June 23, 2014 I agree with you "ChaoticBeauty" and " moonman" ! For example when i used for the first time ENB in my fsx it was the revolution!I can not imagine fly without! This is what i'm talking,Nothing wrong with P3D/FSX...but P3D could do better lighting the first time. The clouds shadows kills fps...What is the improvement apart being more stable ?I am too in hurry maybe ! For be simple, it's like eating the same meal in two different place...the dish will taste different! It's why the atmosphere is very important . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandy Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I also find that clouds can play a big part in that immersion, if you are doing a scud run ( i think thats what its called ), you need to feel that there is a nasty layer of cloud just above you which is the main reason why i have stuck with stock clouds in p3dv2.2 as they create a better sense of there is something above you that you should not enter. While there is great addon packages for cloud textures i do find in certain weather conditions they can detract from the sims immersion and other times they really add to it, they do probably add more to the sim than what they take away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FILOU Posted June 23, 2014 Author Share Posted June 23, 2014 This is what i would like to feel one day with ORBX scenery...A dream... >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLN3iILo8UI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I Use anaglyph 3D with 100% separation and the feeling of being up there in the sky is as real as it gets. The downside unfortunately are the runway lights not being rendered in 3D. ORBX have addressed this issue with a few airports. YMML being one of them. I could never go back to 2D. Kind Regards Bernie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonman Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 This is what i would like to feel one day with ORBX scenery...A dream... >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLN3iILo8UI ... Hi Filou! Yep - totally agree: That would simply be awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FILOU Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share Posted June 24, 2014 I can trust you Bernie !!! 2 more example The sound! >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d6py30Ll70 The natural light ! >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFNaUjFwDCA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnkH Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 For me, one of the most important immersion thing is the feel of altitude. And I think that it is exactly this making the outerra vids so real: the ground you fly over has incredible resolution with many details, even if it is basically only green and, very important: either via bumpmapping or true lightning there are ground shadows plus ground detail structures (rocks etc.) The problem of FSX and P3D is still that the resolution of the classic ground texture is waaaaaay to little and basically plain with some autogen building and trees, impossible to have a realistic feeling for the altitude there. Just compare your daily flying around in the FSX world with a flight over an ORBX airport scenery. Of course, within the airport boundaries with 60, 30 or even 15cm resultion of the ground texture, with all the little solid details (baggage lorries, trucks, cars, people flow etc.) you will have great immersion. As soon as you fly out and reach a plain flat FSX ground texture with like 100m resolution ( ), immersion is gone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NN_Avirex Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 COD was a ambitious but crappy sim made by 1C as a sequel of IL2 sturmovik. It was so ambitious and complexe that it never worked well. Part of the team is now working with 777 studio (Rise of Flight) on "battle of Stalingrad" that seems to be muuuuch better (you can have it in early release). But anyway, I had COD for years on my PC and the scenery cannot compete with FSX/P3D+ ORBX (+ REX,+Active sky)at all, except for the water. They refused to make photo based textures and you really feel it. On the other hand, planes were wonderfully modeled and textured. I'm not sure there is a any sim that can compete with a well set P3DV2 over north california ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabby Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I'm not sure there is a any sim that can compete with a well set P3DV2 over north california ! This! C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FILOU Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share Posted June 24, 2014 For me the ORBX potential is huge...but it will need a simulator at the same level ! I am convinced there will nice surprises to come...i feel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvs193 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Just compare your daily flying around in the FSX world... What? Does anyone actually do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockStarofRust Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 What? Does anyone actually do that? Not anyone I know!!! Maybe Edwards (Insert favorite) for testing!!! FILOU the COD video at the beginning of your post is a poor example of the 1C engine for COD. Probably the posters PC limits and/or online limits. Later 1C/Gaijin Entertainment developed Birds of Prey for the console and Wings of Prey for the PC that at worst were visually Superior . I cannot comment on P3D, but consider these factors in FSX...fluidity(no stutters, fluid camera, etc.)...movement(clouds, trees, traffic etc.)...lighting(cockpit shadows, aircraft self shadows...detail...performance...depth of field! Now consider lighting. If a satellite picture was taken at noon and you fly at dusk??? Your eye wants to pick up patterns! Engines like COD do not rely on satellite pictures to render their scenery. At least I don't think so! Cockpit shadows with NO aliasing!! (Jagged Edges). By the way your topic WHY? is subjective and poignant! WE WANT MORE!!! Combine the freedom of FSX with the technology today...not outdated wonky code...MAN-O-MAN! FSX is DEAD...Long live FSXORBX!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FILOU Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Hello RockStarofRust ,thanks for your comment. It may be not the right example for you but for me it'is!I am not an expert in game coding...I believe what i see and what i feel. It must be very difficult to build a new simulator and i can understand! I watched each P3D video with ORBX scenery " for me ORBX look much better with FSX (9) and ENB...it s why i stay with FSX. The ORBX progress will very quickly and one day they will be forced to brake if they can not find a "Simulator" at their same level. I trust P3D because it's only what we have...When i imagine like fantasy ORBX whit Outerra...the orgasm is not too far! That is what everyone would like to see!yes or no ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonman Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Hello RockStarofRust ,thanks for your comment. It may be not the right example for you but for me it'is!I am not an expert in game coding...I believe what i see and what i feel. It must be very difficult to build a new simulator and i can understand! I watched each P3D video with ORBX scenery " for me ORBX look much better with FSX (9) and ENB...it s why i stay with FSX. The ORBX progress will very quickly and one day they will be forced to brake if they can not find a "Simulator" at their same level. I trust P3D because it's only what we have...When i imagine like fantasy ORBX whit Outerra...the orgasm is not too far! That is what everyone would like to see!yes or no ? [...] I trust P3D because it's only what we have...When i imagine like fantasy ORBX whit Outerra...the orgasm is not too far! That is what everyone would like to see!yes or no ? [...] Indeed Filou! - and when keeping in mind how much You have contributed to the community here (especially Your unique and fantastic screenshots), there is no doubt that Your "concerns" are meant to be constructive only! Furthermore: A reasonable discussion every now and then, if kept in a kind manner (which certainly is the case here), is always welcome i think. And fact is: Lighting and shadowing just are not convincing in P3D by now. Now i am not saying that this won't change in the future and also not saying that a certainly long list of "things to do" will need to be (and are) prioritized by the development team of P3D, but(!): It is fully okay to raise this (and other) issue(s) every now and then, especially (and again saying) when this is done in a constuctive way. One thing though: Checking out the dedicated LM forums for further spcific discussions such as this one here might be worth some consideration as it may be better picked up there http://www.prepar3d.com/forum-5/?mingleforumaction=viewtopic&t=6375.0 Just a suggestion though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Hello Filou, concerning your question in your first post, that sim footage brings some immersion into that game, yes and no. The same goes for every sim that is available. The point is that the simulation vs reality begins in your head. Normally within minutes you forget that the sim is a sim. Things like REX4 ASN shadows (FSX DX10 or P3D2) volumetric fog etc amplify the immersion and the feeling of reality. A good test how this works is to go into a full flight simulator. You dont even need the motion switched on to get the feeling of the real deal. The visual system and the latent darkness around you and the cockpit brings you the immersion. Your organism switches to "im in a real plane and im flying that thing" By the way the visual system in the sims i have been trained on had less detail and immersion than FSX/P3D2. We talk about FS9 quality!!! Besides that comparing FSX/P3D2 vs full flight sim and the real deal is that the real deal can kill you. But to crash in the sim (during a training mission) gives you a horrible feeling in your head and to your ego especially if you dont have a damn clue why you just crashed. Two things would be needed to give the home simmer the real experience 1. a 180°-210° visual system (3000€) 2. and/or a 3 or 6DOF motion platform. Whereas the motion platform is not a requirement but the visual. It would even made no difference if you have the VC on or just a hardware panel and the visual of the sim. Paired with 45-60 FPS voila you are in the "as real as it gets scenario". check out this video >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pdXVBGDlHY&index=9&list=UU4lwAx1_9aYFb29-T_JSXgw you see this is "just" FSX but it feels like a real EH101 (ca 57000€) or this >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbeZuXSWwEg&list=UU4lwAx1_9aYFb29-T_JSXgw&feature=share&index=10 and this which is "just" a curved display (ca 2000€-3000€) Concerning flying in real life in normal daylight conditions you wear 80-90% your sunglasses while in the chair sim you dont need em obviously and you never want to do so, right? What you dont want either are the light to moderate chops while flying through clouds but its nice to have AccuFeel, EZCA and ASN/Opus which simulate that nearly perfect. So all in all its your head that plays games with you The best way to get more immersion in your chair start with a small beamer. Fire up FSX DX9+ENB -nice? Well yes Go on to DX10, shadows and bloom -nice? Well yes a bit better than before Try P3D2 (no add ons) DX11 just turn on the cloud and the aircraft related shadows go fly through and around the clouds see the mist passing by. Watching the trees and the mountains covered in mist in the distance -sounds nice? hmmm well you gotta choose for yourself. In all three scenarios it is still your brain. For me as i know both worlds reality and flight sim, FSX DX10 but more P3D2 is the answer to "as real as it gets" flight sim experience and immersion ATM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FILOU Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Thanks a lot for your nice comment!It was a very constructive conversation.This is what i wanted. I was honest with my feelings about P3D and FSX... Because i am what i am,i just want finish by saying good luck to P3D with ORBX scenery.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 What is the point of this topic exactly? To say that FSX/P3D aren't quite the experience you are seeking? Then you're on the wrong forum in all honesty. I've let this topic run for long enough but it's time to close it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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