Real life ATC

[Ed Correia]

Hi all,

I'm in the process of a "career" change. I've put my business up for sale and I'll be applying for enroute controller jobs at Airservices Australia. Obviously its a big change for me and I have the support of my wife to follow my dream of a career in aviation. I'm pretty confident that I have the "right stuff" to tackle this and I realise that its not easy to get into. Just curious if there are any ATC people on this forum or any one thats attempted the training or even in training at the moment. I would appreciate any thoughts, comments, hints etc.

Thanks

Ed

[Rusty073]

My advise is follow your dream and with wifes support you are half way there. I am not a controller in real life but i know that a career in this field will post stress on home life. This is only my 2 cents someone else will tell you otherwise.

Shane

[Ken Hall]

Go for the dream, all the best with it

[AdamC]

Ed

I tried the testing stage of it in Melbourne a few years back and it was quiet difficult and i was only 22 at the time. I also think they only take a select amount as far as i'm aware but someone may be able to clarify this.

But at the moment there is a world wide shortage of controllers, so mate i say go for it. And keep hounding them, i only tried once where as i should have tried a few times, but not to worry.

Good luck with it all.

Also if you want to try and get some practice maybe jump over to (sorry mods if this is advertisement www.vatpac.org) they will quiet willinly help in getting you started on what you need to know.

Cheers

Adam

[Biscuit Chucker]

I reckon go for it.. I am doing the same at the moment, finally deciding to take the plunge, finish off my CPL and get back into flying..

Don't forget to check out the liveatc feeds for some prac and I am sure that if you contact the authorities they can point you in the right direction re: any relevant reading material.

Good luck with it!

[Butch]

Hi Ed,

Work is hard, even harder if you not really into what you are doing so I'd say go for it. My only suggestion is get hired by Airservices first before selling your business.

There's a pretty big article on Airservices in last months Aviation Australia.

Cheers,

Butch 

[Sawbe]

Yeah I'd make sure you can support yourself while you wait for AsA. I know someone that got accepted in the last intake that is currently at the college. He had his application in for 14 months before they decided to do anything. Obviously might be different with you, but it is a government funded organization 

I did work experience there for a week a couple of years ago and its a great environment, so much so I'll be submitting an application when i can. From speaking to controllers, if you have the enthusiasm to be a controller, then you should get in no worries.

Best of luck with following your dream! 

btw, the misconception that this job is the most stressful thing in the world is ridiculous. You plug in, control, plug out, go home. You are trained to know how to handle emergencies. The rest is just fun.

[Ed Correia]

Thanks for the input and well wishes guys.

I'm in the fortunate position that I can sell my business and not be too pressured to find something else quickly. I've had my post office (I know, post office to ATC?? bit different) for the past 12 years and its been profitable and has set us up to do something different. Its got to the point where I need something more challenging. I believe with my maturity, reasonable intelligence and love of aviation will help. Flight sim has already taught me a whole lot of real life procedures with regards to aviation ( I know its a game, but the theory is all the same) and at some point I'll consider attempting getting a PPL.

Couple of days ago I found that one of dads at my daughter's kinder was 90% the way through the selection process for ATC, so I'll need to catch up with and pick his brains so to speak. He mentioned that one of the tests is an ATC simulator called TRACON. Downloaded it and found it very easy so far to "play". I guess thats thanks to flight simming that has made that spatial awareness almost second nature.

@Butch - is that the august issue of Australian Aviation?

Thanks again guys. Discussing this makes me even more determined.

Ed

[Barry Meiklejohn]

G'day Ed,

There is plenty of good advice above. Most importantly - think very carefully about the effects of shift work on your family.

I am an enroute controller based in Brisbane. I have worked for Airservices (and it's predecessors) for 27 years. Airservices Australia is not an employer I would ever recommend for a myriad of reasons. Unfortunately - I like many other controllers - love my job, and therefore we are caught between a rock and a hard place as AsA is the only employer of controllers in this country. If you follow the press you should be aware that we are losing controllers at a high rate. Again this is due to a lot of different circumstances, however overseas employers are offering much better terms and conditions.

Shiftwork is debilitating and can destroy families. You need to ask yourself -

• Do I go to my childrens sports fixutres on a regular basis
• Does the family rely on me for transport on a regular basis
• Do I enjoy school holidays with my family
• Do I enjoy Christmas/New Year festivities with my family.

The process of being a team member in a group of 14-16 persons, providing roster coverage 24hours a day, 365 days a year means that you have 2 people on leave at any one time. Leave slots are in highest demand for times when the family can enjoy leave together. If you can't get the leave you want you still must take leave when it is inappropriate for you.

Most groups have regular night shifts. For example my roster is

1500-2300

11.30-1930

0600-1400

2300-0700

OFF

OFF

1300-2100

0700-1500

0500-1300

2200-0600

OFF

OFF

REPEAT INFINITUM

So, as you can see, night shift every 6 days. On top of that we are normally called 2-3 times per days off to come in and cover shifts. Often the phone will ring at 8.00am in the morning when you have just got home from the night shift and are trying to sleep.

The training is not hard, but it is concentrated. Also, the time spent in the college will only barely equip you for the real thing. I think, last time I checked it was 12 months or so in Melbourne at the college, then you can expect another 2 or 3 months training in the simulator at your destination (either Brisbane or Melbourne TAAATS centres - the only enroute centres), then another 2 - 3 months live training in the room before rating.

Just checking pay scales for you. You can expect -

Trainee College - $35k

Trainee Field - $53k

Level 1 (succesfully completed ratings) - $72k

through to Level 13 - $135k (not yearly increments as performance based, must be manager approved)

BTW, these salaries include a 32% offset for shift work. ie., a level 13 controller is actually only getting approx $100k for the responsibility of separating hundreds of millions of dollars worth of airframes and thousands of people per 8 hour shift. The extra 35k is for the compensation for shift work.

I did note some comments above about the work not being stressful, but good fun. I do not know of a single controller that considers it good fun. It can be highly rewarding when you plan a very busy sequence and it works, but every 'good' controller I know of always has back up plans for the 'just in case'. Because if it goes wrong you must salvage it - otherwise people could die. One of the 'stressors' of the job is the planning. You really have limited control over what workload is coming your way, but you are taught to plan in advance, and good controllers will hold multiple plans in their head. Of course experience is a great teacher in this regard as well.

Controllers always operate with the knowledge that if they stuff up, it is the controller that will go to jail (Japanese courts sentenced two controllers to imprisonment recently for a near miss). A European controller was murdered by the father of a victim of a mid-air collision. His family watched him get knifed to death. The investigation into the mid-air collision absolved the controller and pointed to systemic errors and management failures leading to the controller being put in a position where the mid-air was inevitable.

During the college training you will be taught about systems failures and models in an effort to make more controllers aware of how commercial, and management efficiencies will place you under pressure to short cut or accept changes that could become fatal flaws. The training is good in this respect.

TRACON will give you some idea of how a US radar controller may work. It bears very little resemblance to life in an Australian unit. Much of our theory may be 'similar' but there are massive differences in practise and culture. Also remember that as an enroute controller you will need to be well versed in procedural separation. This is the type of separation used when outside radar coverage (probably about 80% of Australian airspace). Of course, the college will teach you this, but just remember that anything you may have seen in the FS world is based on radar separation.

A good place to go and view media issues and some background knowledge on Australian ATC's is the Civil Air (ATC union) website -

http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/

So, if you really desire an interesting job that you can leave behind at the end of the day. If you are prepared for the rigors of shift work and can ignore the plitical/management sides of the job; then you will find air traffic control can be a fulfilling and rewarding place to work.

[Barry Meiklejohn]

but it is a government funded organization

Just needed to correct Jake's observation above. Whilst being a little thread drift, some members may find it interesting to note that Airservices Australia is not a government funded organisation at all.

AsA is completely self funded and raises its money in the main by charging Air Navigation Charges (I forget what the official term is now for these charges). Basically every aircraft that receives a service from us is charged an amount normally based on tonnage. There are some other services that AsA sells (navaid maintenance, software developement etc) and I don't know how profitable or not these other ventures are - but the majority of our revenue comes from the airlines.

AsA also must return 60% of before tax profit (if I remember correctly) to our shareholders (we only have one - the government).

I believe AsA's profit last year was in excess of 100million.

[Ed Correia]

Barry,

Thanks for all the info. Definitely a lot to think about. Especailly the shift work aspect. My wife & I have discussed this and even though its not ideal she believes that it would be worth the effort. Her brother is an paramedic and we see how that impacts the lifestyle, but his shifts are longer and more frequent than yours.

I just feel that the ATC job is one that I'll enjoy doing and I think the trade off will be worth it.

Thanks Barry, much appreciated.

Ed

[Sawbe]

Thanks Barry, great information.

By fun I meant rewarding when everything goes right. What group do you work in atm?

[Barry Meiklejohn]

By fun I meant rewarding when everything goes right

Yes, it is definitely that Jake. I work on Outback group (here's a chart) -

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/NOTAMMAPS/OUTBACKISAWEGCVN.PDF

[Sawbe]

Nice.

I have had an interest in ATC for a bit(mostly due to vatsim) and then work experience sold me over. So I'll more then likely apply in a couple of years.

[Hotspot]

Hi Ed,

I did ATC for 22 years working for the predecessors of AsA in all states in Australia (and PNG) except WA and Tassie, so this post caught my attention. I retired some years ago and from what I read in the press and from Barry's thumbnail sketch it appears that not much has changed. I enjoyed the job immensely, but the social and family cost was high. The job was spoiled to a large degree by the treatment of field staff by management, and my retirement came as a direct result of the management attitude, so I breathed a sigh of relief on leaving. I found my whole life had to rotate around being bright eyed and bushy tailed on arrival at work - no matter how little time since the last shift - and the necessity for being able to perform well under any conditions (even at 3 AM). If you have a burning desire - go for it -  Cheers  Bill

[Butch]

Wow, that's been the most interesting reading I've had in sometime.

@ Ed, yes its the August edition and it talks about the issues that Barry and Bill have raised. There's mention of a new Network Operations Centre in Canberra and the measures (technology and management) they are making to address the very issues raised here.

I can understand the shift work, I worked for an airline (as cabin crew) many, many years ago and let me tell you I found it pretty rough on the body and I was a young whipper snapper then, I dont know if I could still do it now and I'm 42

EDIT: come to think of it, running your own business isn't actually 9am-5pm.

If you feel a calling, go for it.

[Ed Correia]

Thanks Butch

Went out and bought it and it did make some interesting reading, especially when they mentioned increasing trainees from 40 to 100. I subscribe to Aero Australia, but that comes out quarterly and Aust. Aviation looks to be a better mag.

And yes running your own business is more than 9-5. You take it all home with you.

Ed

[flyingblind]

I worked as an Airport Safety Officer for 5 years or so at a rather large airport and completely loved the work, shift work and all. I used to be a very regular visitor up the tower to have a chat about upcoming air side works and NOTAMs etc. Often thought about trying for ATC, but after working with the guys and getting through the corporate BS i must say i was put off a bit.

Seems to me they are (generally) a great bunch of guys and girls that do a tremendous job, only problem is their terrible management, the managers at HQ seem to treat their controllers with contempt and loathing, again this is only my own experience based on knowing the guys and hearing their troubles over a beer or two.

Airservices management seem to be in a bit of a hard place, they must return a large profit to the Government and yet supply industry with world class airways safety, still, the way in which current and future controllers are remunerated leaves a lot to be desired.

I believe a review of controllers wages T&C's are to be reviewed, if you have a look at some other forums not mentioned here you'll get a taste for the 'passion' the controllers feel for there management team and why they are leaving in droves.

Bottom line, yes, a great job if thats what you want, ATM i think its not particularly palatable due managements negative culture to wards there controllers. If the time line suggested by others is still accurate then the dust may have settled and (hopefully) the controllers package is a more appealing one.

Life's too short not to have a go - no matter what it is.

[anthony31]

... as AsA is the only employer of controllers in this country.

Perhaps not 100% strictly true as Defence has it's own controllers. For instance, the tower at Darwin is manned by Defence personnel who, I believe, also control the civilian traffic at Darwin. Mind you, I'd like to see you rock up to the Defence Force saying you'll only sign up if they let you be an air traffic controller.

[mahomo]

a very interesting read, i wish you the best of luck

[Ed Correia]

Thought I would revisit this post and say that my application went in. That closed end of October and did the online test shortly after that. I found out today that I passed the initial  test. Next step is some more tests and interviews in February. So, I'm on my way.

Not quite in the league as some others here with their flying lessons and pilot licences, but I'm pretty excited about this.

Cheers,

Ed

[awright]

Very well done. These things are never easy. Good luck for the next  round. Seasonal wishes to you and yours.

Alex

[wantok]

Great stuff and best of luck.

My impression from afar is that ATC in Australia is a classic - perhaps an extreme - example of skilled, dedicated people doing incredibly important work, being screwed over by astonishingly incompetent management.  Keep your armour on, mate.

Don't want to open a whole can of worms, but Ben Sandilands' blog has a few choice words on the subject.

[John Bosch]

Excellent work mate! Maybe we'll hear your voice in the sky one day!

[teecee]

Interesting thread, but I am a little surprised at the emphasis put on how hard it is for an ATC to handle shiftwork.. my guess is that 40-50% of working people do shiftwork, (police, nurses, doctors, factory workers etc)I know I did, for most of my working life, and most of my jobs were lower and middle management.. so "responsible". Yes shiftwork is hard, but not a consideration regarding your ability to do the job if you are really keen. Teecee.

[Ed Correia]

Yes, I have come across the crikey blogs. I've been doing a bit of researching into the Airservices and their current problems. I've taken a sort of optimistic view. If I succeed with all the interviews, the training intakes start from September next year. Plus a year and a half training. By that time, I'm sure that Airservices would have or at least started to get their house in order. Maybe I'm being to hopeful about that, but like I said I'm going to be optimstic.

Thanks for the encouragement guys and hopefully next year Feb/March I'll have some more good news.

Ed

[Rainbow]

ATC eh

ATC -VHZ Say Traffic

VHZ - Traffic

ATC - VHZ Say Altitude

VHZ - Altitude

ATC -VHZ Say Cancell Flight Plan

VHZ - Traffic 1 O'Clock 7500Ft

[Barry Meiklejohn]

Sorry Terry,

Shiftwork is debilitating - whether you love your job or not does not enter into it. It is purely physical - interrupted sleep patterns, inability to eat or exercise regulalry. All this is extremely well documented by medical and university research. This doesn't even consider the personal aspect of shiftwork.

My 'little' girl graduated last week - I had an evening shift. Do you know how much it hurts as a parent to say 'no - sorry I can't go - I've got to work'? I've got Christmas off this year - the first family Christmas in 10 years.

I have 20-30 jets in my airspace between 3am - 5am in the morning; crossing tracks arriving at Brisbane and Sydney. I have to separate these aircraft using time and distance as we don't have any radar. This is far more demanding than any decisions a manager will be making in the middle of the night. Yes, other shiftworkers have responsible jobs too - I would dispute the 40-50% figure - definitely when it comes to night shifts.

I have already discussed the consequences of me getting a split decision wrong in my post above. How many other professions live and die on a single action. Every operational Air Traffic Controller has to make hundreds of decisions every shift. Every Air Traffic Controller knows that if they make a bad decision it is not just their career on the line - but the lives of hundreds of people.

In Australia, we have a chronic problem with lack of staff. We have problems retaining staff - UAE, Germany, Ireland all pay 40-50% higher wages than Australia. We have a problem attracting trainees - we need somewhere in the vicinity of 200 trainees in the next couple of years. There is typically a 50% failure rate over the 18 months of training required to become an operational ATC - so that would mean we need 300 trainees commencing. At the present time we have insufficient ATC to train these trainees - so they sit around the college doing nothing until instructors can be found.

In Australia we have had unacceptably high levels of TIBA for the past year. TIBA is where the airspace is unmanned. That is, no ATC separating or monitoring the frequency. In the past we used to make these restricted airspaces and possibly let one jet in at a time - not today. Brunei, Singapore, Thai, Jetstar, Virgin and Qantas do fly through this airspace with nobody providing a service. The only time it hits the headlines is if it is Sydney Approach. Management say it is an industrial campaign by ATC - it is not, it is lack of staff and lack of planning. This is because Airservices Australia (the ATC provider in this country) is a private corporate entity, charged with returning a massive profit to its single sharelholder (the Australian Government).

This lack of staff means ATC are rang up on each and every day off to fill shifts. Either where there is a line of overtime in the roster or somebody is sick, or on bereavement leave etc (things every job must deal with but not every job has to replace this missing people). When you are rung up every single day off to come into work, it doesn't take long to get jack of it. We need time away from the workplace to refresh our brains and manage our health and lives just as much as the next bloke. We are being taken before the industrial courts as I type this because ATC are saying - NO - I need some time off.

BTW, overtime for ATC is not a single hour or two tacked onto the end of a shift. It is an entire 8 hour shift. Consider the person who has just finished a 4 or 5 day rotation and gets home to sleep after the night shift. About 9 or 10am the phone rings asking him to come in and cover another night shift tonight. That pretty much would destroy his/her weekend and any plans they have made. Would you give up one or two days of your weekend - every weekend - for over two years? That is what is happening on many sectors throughout Australia.

Boy, didn't realise I was so worked up about the issue. Yes, if you have the intelligence, aptitude and fortitude, there is not a better job in the world than ATC. But - it does come with its own penalties. And, unless you have lived the life, there is no way you can make a valid judgement on what those penalties entail. I suppose as always it comes down to respect. Respect for the other person and respect for yourself. There was an article in the Melbourne paper the other day about an upset passenger who was delayed on a QANTAS flight to Sydney and missed his sons football match. What the passenger failed to consider were all the ATC, pilots, stewardesses, LAMEs and every other shiftworker that makes flying possible. They were all at work as well, unable to see their children playing sport etc.

For your consideration...

[Robbo]

I worked for over thirty years in DCA, CAA and ASA.  Department of Civil Aviation was great, but later variants became less pleasant places to be (for reasons already stated) particularly with moral and esprit-de-corps going down the gurgler.  I echo the thought about the rigors of shift work plus you not only have to enjoy your job it has to be a happy loyal place to work/live also.  I do not regret a second of my time spent in civil aviation but I would have to think twice about ever going back.

Just my thoughts

Robert

[Hotspot]

  I do not regret a second of my time spent in civil aviation but I would have to think twice about ever going back.

Just my thoughts

Robert

After my 22 Years 'before the mast' with DCA and many 'later variants' as an ATC I can only agree with Robert about not regretting doing it, as it was the means of my spending time in another country (PNG) and to see a fair slab of Aus, among other things.  Given the vigour of a 35yo starting in a new career with ATC who knows? lamancha, you may be able to help change the atmosphere and really enjoy it. I was 31 when I joined and worked initially in the tower and on sectors in Sydney.

All the best with your new endeavour, Mate - this is a very interesting toplc - keep us posted re the final hurdle. 

[Arran OLeary]

To further elaborate on an earlier post...the RAAF does in fact allow people to join specifically as Air Traffic Control Officers (ATCOs).

However RAAF ATCOs do not control Sectors which is what you've stated you would like to do. Rather they focus on local area control (Tower, Ground, Approach etc.). They are also trained to work from remote 'tactical' locations and also from hostile environments - not exactly a selling point I know! However they obviously do not work for AsA, where it would seem there is considerable animosity between AsA management the controllers. That is not to say of course that the ADF is not without its own political infighting (having spent 17 years in the RAAF in a related field, I cannot understate this!) Likewise regardless of whether a controller works for AsA or the RAAF, shiftwork as an ATCO is inevitable. Staffing levels within the RAAF controller ranks are also critical, and many 'retention' bonuses have been offered over the last 15 years to keep ADF controllers heading to many the locations mentioned by Barry, where ADF controllers are attracted by the $$$.

Another alternative is as an Air Combat Officers (Fighter Controller), which is similar. FCs actually control air assets (FA18s etc.) using either ground or AEW&C assets to merge with, employ their weapons and destroy enemy targets. They have a close relationship with the fighter squadrons to develop tactics etc. Whilst this sounds pretty sexy, they is a LOT of sitting around and not doing the primary FC role. Many FCs are actually failed ADF pilots with a chip on their shoulder about why they didn’t make the grade!

The only reason I mention these options is so that at least you’ve had a chance to investigate all the options before making what will be a life changing decision. At least investigate the ADF as an alternative pathway option, that might also be better suited to your lifestyle – You’ve got nothing to lose. The ADF is certainly not suited to everyone, and as an officer there are a number of expectations that are completely not ATC related, which often leads to job dissatisfaction - but this is not just limited to ATCO! You also spend considerable time doing a heap of stuff that has absolutely no relation to controlling aircraft, which frustrates many FCs. Admin roles, working on projects in Canberra behind a desk etc. Also the further you get promoted, the less control you’ll do amd the more managerial roles you’ll be expected to take on.

Talk to ADF recruiting, at least you can then say you’ve explored all the options. However if you want a reality check on the rosy picture Recruiting will promote...I'm happy to fill in the blanks 

Good Luck either way

Azza

[Ed Correia]

Barry, I really appreciate you taking the time posting here. I am sitting here with a young family of 3 daughters under the age of eight. I have been fortunate enough up till now to spend a whole lot of time with them. My wife and I have spoken at great length about the huge impact that this would make. And we have both decided to accept this and be determined to be positive. I just really hope to make it to the trainee stage and be in the 50% that makes it through. Talking from the inside of Airservices and its dire situation, do you see any improvement at all happening? I understand the need to state the facts and explain how things are. And I appreciate that they are not to dissuade me but present me with a balanced view as to what I'm getting myself into. I do not believe I am being to naive and thinking that it'll be all hunky-dory.

Bill, you've probably summed up what I want to achieve-help change the atmosphere and enjoy it.

Arran, I haven't really explored going down the ADF path. I'll have a look at that and see. Not too sure whether the missus would want me joining the armed forces.

Thanks again guys and I will update my progress-hopefully all positive

[Barry Meiklejohn]

G'day Ed,

I hope that you succeed too mate, you sound like you have the dedication and consideration required.

Trying not to be too negative - as you said I am not trying to scare you, nor anyone else off, but things will get worse before they get better. If you dedicate yourself in the college and then in field training, try to ignore the politics. Hopefully things will be looking rosier when you get through. You will find most of the instructors down the college will be trying to help you pass the course as best they can - especially if they see you are trying hard.

Once you have achieved your ATC license, and have some practical experience; if you are not happy in Australia you will be able to move to a lot of different countries around the world. Our Australian license is an ICAO license and Australian controllers are recognised the world over for their professionalism and dedication to servicing the aviation industry.

As many have said above, you will find it a rewarding, interesting and challenging career.

Hope to see you in the field some time soon.

[Ed Correia]

Thanks again, Barry.