Kilstorm Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 As a supporter of yours and other developers who do so much for the hobby, I hate knowing that through piracy, you’re loosing money and in turn its indirect affect on supporter and customers like me. I’m sure you have a line of communication with Microsoft Games and a contact or two over there who are part of the upcoming Flight. They have already mentioned this new software will be part of their Games Live for Windows. I also know you are in touch with your distributors for your products. Might I make a suggestion that would nearly put an end to piracy of your products, raise your profits and global awareness and do this for other companies creating addons for MSF while not hurting addon retailers. I’m not a tech guy but if this is possible everyone (Microsoft, all addon developers who wish to be part of this, software retailers and customers would benefit from this idea). Here it goes: FSX was released with an online activation serial number. Going forward and looking at MSF, have that number be a part of all addon wrappers. Instead of buying a lease for individual use for the person, its for the individual use for the MSF identity. Meaning any addons are leased not to a person with a credit card but to just one copy of MSF. This is where addon developers will need to work with MS to get this feature done. What MS will gain is to sell your software and receive a commission on each sale. That’s good for MS. What addon developers will gain is marketing to a bigger market share by having their products listed on the Games Live web-front online store. What current retailers of addons (FlightSim Store, SimMarket etc) will benefit is that MS will be the store front but will use a few selected well established retailers like just mentioned as being the servers to provide the products and offer customer support. When played out, Orbx releases a new item, it is shown/advertised/promoted on the Games Live for Windows website. The customer buys it and selects the retailer they want to download it from. The sale is made, MS get a commission, the retailer gets the money and the developer gets paid from the retailer. Now heres the big deal to end piracy and the reason to work with MS: Each DVD of MSF will most like have a serial number and need online activation. That number will be stored in a profile at the Windows Live storefront profile. So if a person wants to buy your product, they will need to put their serial number for their copy of MSF into their profile. When the customer buys the new addon, that MSF serial number is put into the wrapper for the download. No more need of the addon having to create a user and password to protect the software because that MSF will replace it. The purchase is made and the download is completed. When the customer goes to install the addon, there is no need to put a user name, password, serial number..whatever to install it. Instead the reader reads the MSF serial number in the registry, confirms it’s the same as the new addon and installs the software. When MSF starts up it then reads all addon registries confirming they all match the same as the MSF one and proceeds to load MSF. If there is just one registry that doesn’t match, it will not open MSF until that addon is removed. The end results are that the customer/user uploads his unique MSF serial number which gets tied into the download of any addons. MSF would be designed so that it will not install mismatched addons that don’t match that version of MSF serial number. The user can then make CD/DVD back ups of their download with no need to worry about wrappers cause as long as those addons stay with that serial number version of MSF, it will install. Kinda like how the IPod works with music. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotspot Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 What happens when you change a motherboard, MS insists you buy yet another OS rather than revalidate the perfectly good one you already have, and all your backup DVD's are coded to your old non renewable OS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilstorm Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 What happens when you change a motherboard, MS insists you buy yet another OS rather than revalidate the perfectly good one you already have, and all your backup DVD's are coded to your old non renewable OS? Its not coded to the OS but the MSF serial number. As long as you can install MSF or whatever sim onto the new computer you can install all your addons as well. What you can't do is install your copy of MSF with lets just say the serial number being 1234 and then download a pirated addon which was sold for someone elses computer with its MSF serial number being 5678. It wont install. If you then try and hack your MSF registry to be 5678 to accept the new addon, then if you try and add other pirated stuff or buy an online there would be a conflict and MSF wont start. The fundimentals are there just a matter of addon deveolpers wanting to work with MS to increase MS profits by giving them a share of the addon market and in return they work to provide a better anti piracy method built into the sim. While it might not be full (or is it fool?) proof, your not going to be able to torrents stuff because you will need both the MSF serial number and the addon reg serial number to match up. Like I said I'm not a tech guy and have no idea about wrappers, cracks and registries but do feel if every addon was based off of the host sims serial number and the sim software was designed to scan the registry when starting the software for irregularites, that it would prevent a huge road block from sharing addons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Monkey Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I don't know, but putting all the security in one basket - the MSFS validation process - seems a little bit risky. If someone finds a way to emulate the MSFS validation offline, then suddenly widespread piracy for all addons becomes possible and out of control for addons developers. For the pirates, it means that they need to focus only one Achilles heel, one protection system, instead of having to do a constant arms race with each particular protection system - it sounds like a gift to them... On the other hand, new difficulties might arise from the user: say you lose your MSFS copy (in a flood for example), what do you do then? There would need to be a license transfer system to carry over your addons to another license, which is one more process that would be tied to MS service rather than the potentially excellent ones from addon developpers and publishers - I prefer to deal with the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice_King Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Yeah iPod and iTunes suck. The world of Piracy and Anti Piracy is in a constant state of flux. There will always be those that are capable of making workaround tools. The best we can do is be vigilant and advise JayKae of packages you suspect of being pirated. Remember that any file that is downloaded can be made Machine specific end of story. I have some racing software for telemetry that I must re-validate if I change my hardware configuration, Pain in the backside it may be BUT I am a legitimate user and will gladly put up with a small inconvenience to use a genuine product. Set up a torrent with some trojan in it so it reports back to the Bat Cave would be a good deterrent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Thanks for the post and your concerns, but you may be surprised we're considering moving away from any form of copy protection completely. Why? Because it mainly inconveniences our honest customers, and those who steal our software are not likely to purchase it anyway. So we beat the pirates by taking the glamour out of the crack. It's worth noting that we are selling our unprotected DVDs in record numbers these days. WRT MS-Flight, nobody knows the mechanics of how addons are sold, so we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. My guess is that MS will approach things differently this time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiFlyer Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Thanks for the post and your concerns, but you may be surprised we're considering moving away from any form of copy protection completely. Why? Because it mainly inconveniences our honest customers, and those who steal our software are not likely to purchase it anyway. So we beat the pirates by taking the glamour out of the crack. It's worth noting that we are selling our unprotected DVDs in record numbers these days. WRT MS-Flight, nobody knows the mechanics of how addons are sold, so we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. My guess is that MS will approach things differently this time around. Considering the PC trends, it will turn out to be some sort of monthly subscription Flight Sim MMO! :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Monkey Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Considering the PC trends, it will turn out to be some sort of monthly subscription Flight Sim MMO! :'( Hopefully not, given that the MMO industry is now moving away from monthly subscription to "free2play" schemes, which is a model where you pay for addons bascially; therefore, in a way, it's been more the other way around: MMOs are becoming a little more like FSX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illogik Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 ^^ that is so true!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Hamilton Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 So we beat the pirates by taking the glamour out of the crack. I think that will just make it more likely to be pirated, since the pirates don't have to work for it. Probably also end the practice of links that don't expire at stores like FSS. I personally would prefer to have to enter that information if it meant not having to ask Adrian or Jay to reactivate my links. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alainneedle1 Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Anything is possible ...about something like this.... http://www.fudzilla.com/games/item/21604-microsoft-brings-in-piracy-checks-on-xbox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Does anyone know how much piracy actually impacts sales? I suspect it may not be that large a problem. My impression of the typical hacker is some 17 year old kid who downloads everything, games, movies etc, so many in fact that, they never use them. They are addicted to the piracy downloads, but how many would actually ever purchase and use the software. I purchase and use the software (look at my signature list), and doubt that many piracy addicts ever use, or would ever purchase, they are playing a different game! One thing is true though, a quick google search will show piracy downloads available that would make any software developer simply writhe in anger. Remember when FSX came out, Microsoft was going to have leading anti-crack protection, someone leaked a gold copy, and it was available (cracked) for download, the day before the actual commercial release date! It's enough to make you cry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J van E Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Kilstorm's idea may look nice and all but it is all based around a version of FSX/Flight that can't be cracked... And believe me: everything can be cracked. So the whole idea falls apart immediately from the start... And adding MS to the chain will cost everyone money, that's for sure. The customer will be the one who pays the commision and/or the online shops will earn less (while they still have to support the software and make server space available...) etc. etc. Not a good idea, imho. Removing copy protection isn't a bad idea. I think that 1. a lot (if not most) pirates would never buy what they download anyway, no matter what and 2. there are people who don't buy stuff online because of the copy protection... I do buy stuff online but I hate to ask for activation of something I bought (not talking about Orbx here) and having to wait until the developer has found the time to answer my email... I have a few products I don't use anymore due to this. And I used to have some products I couldn't use at all anymore because the dev was out of business (not FSX related btw). Pirates are in it for the fun and the kick of it. They like to show themselves off by cracking the impossible and then upload it for all to see. If the software isn't protected at all 1. there is no fun in uploading it (no fame to be gained), 2. there is no real use in uploading it (since it will be presumed everyone can easily get it anyway) and so 3. there will be far less links on the internet that offer the stuff... which 4. makes it harder to find the software for the average Joe. Let's not forget that protecting stuff costs time and money... while everyone knows it's useless because it will be cracked anyway... You may lose and gain customers by doing this, but it wouldn't surprise me if the amount of customers would actually grow. But of course when it comes to computers, nothing is certain... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Henare Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 My impression of the typical hacker is some 17 year old kid who downloads everything, games, movies etc, so many in fact that, they never use them. Unfortunately not. Piracy covers the entire age spectrum. At work a large number of the guys openly copy rip and pirate movies etc and the age bracket is 25 - 60 years old then they share the media between each other such as films. music and TV shows. The embarrassing thing is that they are all on a very very good wage and do it not because they can't afford it but just because they can. Its too easy now and too many people are doing it. Most of these guys are honest guys and would stop if they really got the true message on the impact of what they are doing, they just perceive what they are doing as only a little bit naughty like breaking the speed limit by a few Km/h rather than and outright bank robbery or braking the speed limit by 100 km/h. They are called "The Accidental Pirate" i didn't know what i was doing was that wrong. I just spent $1000 on Photoshop CS5 and while i was researching prices i was offered "copies" of CS4 buy two people from work alone. I always explain my situation and how piracy affects me personally and the risk it would expose to myself and Orbx if i was using illegitimate development tools. So no is not pimply 17 year old its everyone. My feeling is that something will happen in the future that will put the brakes on it, probably in the form of a huge landmark legal event as the law slowly catches up. For info i just brought Civilisation V which uses Steam. I can load it on as many computers as i want and play using the Steam activation system to allow me to play on which every computer i am using. It was dead easy to setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAviator Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I'm starting to believe that no legal case is ever going to solve this problem. I think the only way to curb piracy is to educate people. They had a series of ads that used to come with DVDs here in Australia, perhaps some people remember them. Despite the ads being a little over the top and unfairly aimed at kids IMO, I think they were a step in the right direction. I would love to see more of these on TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heiko Glatthorn Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 For info i just brought Civilisation V which uses Steam. I can load it on as many computers as i want and play using the Steam activation system to allow me to play on which every computer i am using. It was dead easy to setup. The Settlers 7 even needs an active internet connection. If your line times out, the game is paused... No matter if you are still in Steam or not. The next Flightsim will change a lot, no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Monkey Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I also believe that education is the key to decrease piracy - it makes all the difference between piracy being culturally accepted or not. A single person can do a lot by explaining around, especially to friends, how piracy damages the industry and how arguments sometime used by computer users (I don't have enough money - when the person just spend 10 times more in hardware upgrades) do not hold a second. I did battle with some friends that had the bad habit to go and download everything all the time (not fsx which they don't use, but games) - and mind you, with perseverance I'm seeing the results and they now play less games, choose them better and pay for them, and I think they've realized they haven't lost any thing in the change, but gained a lot by supporting the developers. If each of us could educate and convince half a dozen of people that piracy shouldn't be accepted, then it might change the balance on the longer term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomic_Sheep Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 The only protection you need is what these guys have organised on the forum... you wanna get support? You prove that you bought it. Support is a small thing if everything works but still, it's a good way of going about things. Also... if you think about it... a good product doesn't need to worry about not getting 100% of users who use it to be buyers, it's so good that people will flock to it and make more than enough money for them... that's the first thing... secondly, price is an important factor. If you make a crap product and charge through the roof for it, people will pirate it. If you make the best product and charge reasonably for it, people will not worry about pirating stuff and simply buy it for the conveniece and knowing that they are getting a bang for the buck. Simple as that people. Piracy only affects sub par products. So if you think about it, the issue isn't piracy, it's really a lack of good products that is the problem!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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