Australian Airports

[John York]

Just a reminder.  I know you're all involved in doing new work but it would be nice to have, or at least know, that some of the important airports in Australia are still going to be produced.  I mean, we are still missing Adelaide, Sydney(?), Alice, and I'm sure there're several others.

So, how about an update please.

John

[gheeD]

http://fullterrain.com/product_roadmap.html

[John York]

Yes, I know thanks Kim but we don't know when and some of us haven't got forever to wait!

Cairns and Canberra look to be they will be particularly beautiful.

There's no mention of the other major city Adelaide though. 

I just wish the developers would pull their socks up and get a move on!

John

[ravemtech]

I don't think John is trying to be rude about the comment "Pull your socks up".  I think we all know Orbx is flat out trying to produce a range of products to stay commercially viable and the US market is clearly an area with a huge potential market compared to the Australian market and thus the push for the US products and a little bit of a slow down in the Australian product releases. 

Being a senior designer for an Australian Company in another area of manufacturing in which it is almost the sole Australian supplier,  the Australian market is bareIy viable due to limited population.  A US supplier once described Australian sales as less than 1% of it's US market despite there product being sold to over 90% of the Australian users.

I too would love to see Orbx release Moorabbin tomorrow,  and would love to see both Orbx and Ozx produce far more Victorian (especially) and other Australian airports.  but sadly the reality for this to happen is that Orbx (with the help of free Ozx airports) needs to put alot of time and make a massive killing in the US to fund smaller Australian less profitable products.

But being greedy,  please don't forget us Ozzie flyers down the bottom of Australia and make us lots of airports .

Anthony

[John York]

Exactly Anthony.

  Actually, OZx could make 'em all and take the weight off Orbx.  How's that for an idea?

John

[John Venema]

I need to update our roadmap web page.

Some projects will be cancelled.

We earn over 70% of our revenue from outside Australia, so it makes sense to devote resources to where the customers are.

A quick, no BS update looks like this:

YSSY - not happening

YPAD - not happening

YPPH - not happening; Jarrad's next project is Anacortes in PNW

YASP - under internal review, Jerry has not yet gotten to beta stage

YBTH - project underway, John Ross has taken over from Tim Harris, modeling commenced

YBCS - should be released this year, beta 4 due sson

YSCB - this year

YBRK - Under review, no beta builds seen yet

YBCG - cancelled, we cannot get airport access for photos

YWOL - unannounced, but should be this year, waiting on final imagery license

YMEN - underway, ground imagery done, cleanup done, Marty begins modeling next month

YMML 2.0 - next month

YMMB - unlikely, no beta build yet, very little progress

YBUD - should be this year, Ian has been overseas, but the last beta looked great

As for other products:

FTX Pacific Fjords - before Christmas

FTX Northern Rockies - before Christmas

FTX NZ South - 2011

Other regions in 2011/12

Lancair IV-P - before Christmas

KORS - before Christmas

4-5 more PNW airports before Christmas (not yet announced but being worked on)

[Patrick Scharnowski]

YASP - under internal review, Jerry has not yet gotten to beta stage

I really hope this is still going to happen. The Alice Springs area looks great in default FTX already, it would be outstanding as a fully fledged orbx add on airport.

[Serge]

YPPH - not happening; Jarrad's next project is Anacortes in PNW

Bugger, as a Sandgroper it was one I was kind of hoping for but not to worry, life goes on. Now looking forward to YSCB and YBCS.

Regards,

Serge

[capt sl]

its a shame that some major aussie airports wont have the orbx touch  and as john states majority of revenue is from outside OZ so looks as if  oz airports will have less represantation 

[John York]

Yes, I can understand the revenue issue. 

However, Alice Springs has just got to be done please John.  I don't think you Aussies realise what a famous place this is outside Australia.  The rest of the world would probably struggle to place Canberra in their minds but they will all know Alice Springs!  You've got 'A Town Like Alice' to thank for that and later of course, Rolf Harris!

Having seen the list you are doing though John, I don't think I've much cause for complaint about the rest.  Thanks for that.  I'll have to start saving my coppers!

John

[Xflyboy]

Wow, an interesting post.

I'm kinda shocked, no Alice Springs.

I enjoy flying Australia more than PNW, and these airports would have made it complete (IMO), I was really looking forward to these airports:

YBCS - Cairns

YBHI - Broken Hill

YBAS - Alice Springs

I guess I'll have to spend my money on something else!

[Guest J van E]

FTX Pacific Fjords - before Christmas

FTX Northern Rockies - before Christmas

4-5 more PNW airports before Christmas (not yet announced but being worked on)

I hope the AU lovers won't mind me getting excited, but this post MADE MY DAY! WOW! Yihaa!!! So within about 4 months we'll be able to fly above a very large region around PNW!!! And 4 to 5 new PNW to come with it! I am a HAPPY customer! Thanks for this great news: I didn't expect to see those regions that soon!!! :)

[Guest strider]

JV, have you ever thought about advertising in AOPA or AVWEB ?? There is probably about a million pilots in the US that don't sim. Maybe after seeing your eye candy they might be intrigued enough to pick up a ORBX Addon ! 

[airman]

I know what I'm getting for Christmas!

[toucanair]

If you need Airside pics For YBCG, I fly into there every other day and night, Infact I was there tonight Back home in Melbourne now though, I fly into just about all the capitals so if Orbx, Ozx , private freeware venture, Whom ever FS Magician, need reference pics let me know, can't help to much with GA areas they would have to be "zoom" shots I guess, but main apron tower taxiways etc, shouldn't be a problem, Been flying anyware between 60 to 100 Hrs per Month , So frequency isn't a problem,

What is a problem though, lol, is working a 12 hr roster 4 sector Day then getting home, giving the "cheese and kisses" a peck on the cheek Loading up FSX and zooming up the ORBX coast at ZOT Ft for a few hours, till my eyes swell up an close over, then hit the hay and do it all over again. It can't be healthy. Yes, I'm an FS addict 

[Vora]

Alice Springs "under review"? The only airport you had planned for AU RED is hanging by a thread?

Cairns and Alice are the airports I look forward to the most.

[alan2]

If it helps the the cause....I too have been waiting for Alice Springs, but also aware that Orbx would love to do the whole world if it had the man power.

[Jerry Smith]

Guys please be assured that YBAS (Alice Springs) is on my road map that's for sure.  It has taken longer than wanted but it is still going ahead.  I am slowly creeping closer to a beta but it will be going ahead and I cant wait as much as you guys to get it all done.  A reveiw is just that in that JV needs to stocktake, reveiw whats done and what is needed and see how it can be kept motoring ahead.  I dont think too much should be made of it as far as I know its still go and a change in my work arrangments should see even more time to develop over the next few months )

[alan2]

Its a happening thing , Thanks Jerry   

[Dexter Dog]

Looking forward to a town like Alice!

[Rob Abernathy]

Thanks for this post and J's response.  I'll be getting all of the titles below as they come out (and not just because I live in the PNW either    )  And, strangely enough I will be looking forward to Alice Springs too!

FTX Pacific Fjords - before Christmas

FTX Northern Rockies - before Christmas

FTX NZ South - 2011

Other regions in 2011/12

Lancair IV-P - before Christmas

KORS - before Christmas

4-5 more PNW airports before Christmas (not yet announced but being worked on)

[JusJ]

I need to update our roadmap web page.

YSSY - not happening

Is this a business decision, or is it due to lack of access to photos etc?  My guess is that an ORBX YSSY would sell very, very well internationally...

[Derek McAllan]

YPPH - not happening; Jarrad's next project is Anacortes in PNW

Extremely super disappointed    I was hoping it was at least somewhere in our future with orbx, it's great having YPJT but still...  Given that I fly 99% of my time in Australia even though I have PNW as well, I'm pretty bummed that Oz is getting less attention from you, regardless of what the US market may be like.

John, I actually think it's a bit of a kick in the teeth to the Aussies here that we're not going to see much development in the future.  While I'm sure most everyone in here (myself included) will continue to support orbx because of the excellent products and service, I think it's a mistake to drop major Australian airports off the radar when it was really the focus on the aussie product that got orbx up.  Sorry if that comes across as harsh, as I have tremendous respect for the whole orbx team, you've done a great job to date, but this will definitely influence my spending choices in the future - this at a time when the MS Flight discussions are urging people not to stop supporting the devs in hope of a new product.  You've actually just managed to negate that argument for me, as I don't really intend to be buying a lot of the PNW and further US products - they just don't really interest me.  NZ is another matter, but still a long way off.

That's my two cents, apologies for the rant, and I hope there is still at least some glimmer of hope for seeing the likes of ORBX YPPH, YSSY, YPAD sometime in the future.

Cheers,

Derek

[capt sl]

YPPH - not happening; Jarrad's next project is Anacortes in PNW

Extremely super disappointed    I was hoping it was at least somewhere in our future with orbx, it's great having YPJT but still...  Given that I fly 99% of my time in Australia even though I have PNW as well, I'm pretty bummed that Oz is getting less attention from you, regardless of what the US market may be like.

John, I actually think it's a bit of a kick in the teeth to the Aussies here that we're not going to see much development in the future.  While I'm sure most everyone in here (myself included) will continue to support orbx because of the excellent products and service, I think it's a mistake to drop major Australian airports off the radar when it was really the focus on the aussie product that got orbx up.  Sorry if that comes across as harsh, as I have tremendous respect for the whole orbx team, you've done a great job to date, but this will definitely influence my spending choices in the future - this at a time when the MS Flight discussions are urging people not to stop supporting the devs in hope of a new product.  You've actually just managed to negate that argument for me, as I don't really intend to be buying a lot of the PNW and further US products - they just don't really interest me.  NZ is another matter, but still a long way off.

That's my two cents, apologies for the rant, and I hope there is still at least some glimmer of hope for seeing the likes of ORBX YPPH, YSSY, YPAD sometime in the future.

Cheers,

Derek

think youve echoed my sentiments  warpspider74

I also do all my simming in and around OZ and NZ , so obviously sceneries from here are of great interest to me.

while I completely understand what John says from a business perspective and at the end a good bottom line keeps them afloat ,  it would be dissapointing to have attention to OZ lessened.

[JusJ]

YPPH - not happening; Jarrad's next project is Anacortes in PNW

Extremely super disappointed    I was hoping it was at least somewhere in our future with orbx, it's great having YPJT but still...  Given that I fly 99% of my time in Australia even though I have PNW as well, I'm pretty bummed that Oz is getting less attention from you, regardless of what the US market may be like.

John, I actually think it's a bit of a kick in the teeth to the Aussies here that we're not going to see much development in the future.  While I'm sure most everyone in here (myself included) will continue to support orbx because of the excellent products and service, I think it's a mistake to drop major Australian airports off the radar when it was really the focus on the aussie product that got orbx up.  Sorry if that comes across as harsh, as I have tremendous respect for the whole orbx team, you've done a great job to date, but this will definitely influence my spending choices in the future - this at a time when the MS Flight discussions are urging people not to stop supporting the devs in hope of a new product.  You've actually just managed to negate that argument for me, as I don't really intend to be buying a lot of the PNW and further US products - they just don't really interest me.  NZ is another matter, but still a long way off.

That's my two cents, apologies for the rant, and I hope there is still at least some glimmer of hope for seeing the likes of ORBX YPPH, YSSY, YPAD sometime in the future.

Cheers,

Derek

think youve echoed my sentiments  warpspider74

I also do all my simming in and around OZ and NZ , so obviously sceneries from here are of great interest to me.

while I completely understand what John says from a business perspective and at the end a good bottom line keeps them afloat ,  it would be dissapointing to have attention to OZ lessened.

I agree too.  I recently reinstalled FSX and removed my non-ORBX scenery, because I came to the conclusion that FTX Australia looks so good, I couldn't fly anywhere else.  I was looking forward to one day having all the major Australian airports ORBX'd.

Is it worth asking the OZx guys to fill the gap now, or do they do GA airports only?

[Bluemarlin]

Sad to say guys, but I always thought this would happen.  Small niche market Australia, big market for the US due to simming population there.

I feel we have already seen less focus on Australian titles and issues - this post has just confirmed it.  We were told over six months ago that an update for the Australian regions (red blue green yellow) DVD was coming including an update of YCFS for those of us that didn't purchase via FSS but to no avail.  Not saying its not in the pipeline, just that once upon a time it would have been a priority for them - not now.  Still having some very odd issues around the greater YBBN area that I have been unable to solve, even with the input from the support guys of course.  Don't know whether its a YBBN issue or a gold issue but had no issues prior to YBBN introduction and now every time I head north out of YBBN on a sid the system crashes 20 -30DME out.  Not a/c related as they all do it.

I feel Orbx have forgotten the customers that helped put them on the map in the firstplace and gave them a foothold in the market.

I will proably be castigated for saying it, but I think it's the truth.  I love their work in general and I will still buy the AU releases YBCS, YBUD, YSCB and YMML but very dissapointed at the apparent abandonment of any real Aussie development past this.

I give credit to JV for informing us of what the plan is and understand his reasons however I think its a backward step for most of us.

Cheers

Bluey

[Henderson Pow]

What's different with Melbourne 2.0?

And why no YMMB, you guys did Jandakot. I do flight training with RVAC there and you guys would do great job of it unlike default fsx.

AU Blue Temperate South #73560

[captzoo]

Well, disappointed to say the least! I know Orbx are busy flooding the market with their magical scenery and it is appreciated, but not to do at least the major airports in Aus is a major disapoointment. :(

I only hope that down the track Orbx will review their position on this and look at completing what they started in Aus...fingers crossed.

[John Venema]

Sad to say guys, but I always thought this would happen.  Small niche market Australia, big market for the US due to simming population there.

I feel we have already seen less focus on Australian titles and issues - this post has just confirmed it.  We were told over six months ago that an update for the Australian regions (red blue green yellow) DVD was coming including an update of YCFS for those of us that didn't purchase via FSS but to no avail.  Not saying its not in the pipeline, just that once upon a time it would have been a priority for them - not now.  Still having some very odd issues around the greater YBBN area that I have been unable to solve, even with the input from the support guys of course.  Don't know whether its a YBBN issue or a gold issue but had no issues prior to YBBN introduction and now every time I head north out of YBBN on a sid the system crashes 20 -30DME out.  Not a/c related as they all do it.

I feel Orbx have forgotten the customers that helped put them on the map in the firstplace and gave them a foothold in the market.

I will proably be castigated for saying it, but I think it's the truth.  I love their work in general and I will still buy the AU releases YBCS, YBUD, YSCB and YMML but very dissapointed at the apparent abandonment of any real Aussie development past this.

I give credit to JV for informing us of what the plan is and understand his reasons however I think its a backward step for most of us.

Cheers

Bluey

I can understand your disappointment, but your assumptions are not correct. Most of the original FTX AU sales came from Europe and the USA, not Australia, so in fact we have a stronger customer base outside Australia from day one. I believe we have gone above the call of duty to ensure there are a large number of both payware and freeware regions and airports for Australia, which did not reward the majority of our buyers outside Australia.

at the apparent abandonment of any real Aussie development past this.

This is where people get themselves in trouble, by putting words in my mouth   Did I say in my post that we are 'abandoning' Australian development? Far from it. Look at what is coming and we'll continue to release new (as yet unannounced) titles for Australia.

We have had an SP3.002 planned for some time now, which includes many, many enhancements (a 3D Sydney Harbour Bridge by Max Kraus, for one), but we're simply waiting for YMML, YSCB and YBCS to be released so the roads/landclass updates are all combined into a single release. Again, you've read something in my post of which the opposite is true.

We have a backlog of TextureFlow updates due for AU airports and I will endeavour to release them before Christmas.

We are not making any large international airports in the short term for AU for the simple reason that they are just unprofitable for us. They take 18+ months to make, usually by 2-3 developers, yet provide the same revenue for us as smaller regional airports, even ones priced lower. We're running a business, not a charity (although sometimes I think we're a bit too charitable to be honest).

I think some folks have a short memory of what it was like to fly in AU before we released FTX, and it seems that no matter how hard we work we're still deemed to be abandoning this country regardless of our output.

Finally, can I just say that Orbx is still not profitable after 2.5 years of selling FTX addons. That means a lot of investors and shareholders are being very patient with us as we continue to increase our customer reach globally. We're all for being parochial, but we find some of those comments a little offensive to say the least.

[Guest strider]

You guys sound like a bunch of selfish, spoiled brats crying. I bet 70% of ORBX original sales came from Simmers outside of Australia. I’m sure JV could have started out with any Terrain Region in the World and have been just as Successful with his Talents ! I don’t live in Australia or in the PNW aria but I’ve bought most of his scenery projects ! Why ? Because I enjoy ORBX CANDY ! My city and state are no where in his future roadmap but you don’t see me having a fit nor anybody else that lives outside of these arias. If you’re a real Pilot and Simmer you would enjoy flying anywhere in the world ! Especially ORBX style ! Lighten up guys, I’m sure JV not done with his home Country !  But give the Team a break, they need to make a living and make the business Grow !

[Dylan Lampard]

Ohk guys,

this post i wrote under here is what i wrote last night but didn't get a chance too post it, I hope it might somehow give some of you an idea of just how much effort goes into making scenery for just a small strip.

========================================================================================

Hey Guys,

Just thought i would add a little piece to this thread from a 'newbee' developers point of view

Developing a scenery takes a lot longer then most would originally expect, even for a small OZx strip like the ones im doing. Once you get your PR (Photoreal) into the sim you will be messing around with coulour matching for ages... For example I'm working on a small bush strip in WA i have completly redone it 3 times and each time a seperate PR. I'm happy with how it looks now, so i go onto colour matching all the grass and trees etc it has taken me in total well over 6hrs to get it too a point where im happy with the PR.

This strip is small and I can only imagine the amount of work that goes into a larger strip just in its PR aspect. Then you have too model each component and hand place it...which is extremely tedious. Then theres Water Mask and Night lighting as well as numerous other things you need to complet before a strip is ready.But in the end its all worth it and  your strip comes to life ,you put it in BETA then there are issues and multiple builds for BETA. So suddenly this small bush strip turns into weeks of work.

So that is a very brief and hopefully correct punctuation overview of how a 'newbee' developer makes a field and hopefully gives you more appriciation (not saying you don't appriciate it ) of how  much work would go into developing a large scale strip

Just remember this is from my perspective and only on small strips for OZx:)

=========================================================================================

Cheers,

Dylan

[Bluemarlin]

Hello John

Thank you for your forthright reply, unlike Strider's reply, we certainly were not getting personal like he did.

Thank you also for clarifying some of the issues I raised before, I do look forward to the updated 3.002 and understand now the reason we have not seen it, even when it was promised a long time ago.  As mentioned before, I will be purchasing YSCB, YMML 2.0 and YBCS as and when they become available.  If I jumped to conclusions that were incorrect I sincerely apologise.

If you are not pulling out of additional works in AUS past the announced releases then that is great news, I believe there are plenty of available airports here to do before exhausting the market that are not primary airports like YSSY or YPPH for that matter.  There are pleny of regionals here in WA for example that are crying out for a good rendition and hope that they could be considered at some stage.  The mining industry boom has seen massive development in airports so they can cope with the increased demand.

Your 3.0 DVD pack has given simming enthusiasts the ability to fly all over Australia with fantastic textures but I personally think, why stop now when it is unfinished with many great and interesting regional possibilities available.

I think i could safely say many of us out here do not know the many difficulties you developers face and our dissapointment is a testament to the quality of products we have come to love and expect.

You guys started something here and many of us would like to see it finished, thats all.

Sincerely

Bluey

[JusJ]

You guys sound like a bunch of selfish, spoiled brats crying.

That's a bit much mate. 

I don't think it's unreasonable for the Australian Orbx fans to feel some disappointment about the very tangible shift in focus by Orbx away from Australian scenery.  That is what is being expressed here.

On reflection we're very, very lucky that the best FSX scenery developer in the world is an Australian company and that they have developed the Australian scenery that we already have.  I think it goes without saying, though, that we all want Orbx to succeed financially. 

In a perfect world, Orbx would succeed financially by creating and selling all the major Australian airports. I guess we're just lamending that it's not a perfect world!  I'm very grateful for what Orbx has already done for Australian flight simulation, and I'll be buying YMML2, YSCB and YBCS to continue to support them.

[Jason]

Short and simple, only voicing another opinion, right or wrong its mine and i offer it, its up to you to decide if you think its right or wrong.

Of all the airports in Aus, there surely has to be room in ORBX future for YSSY, I understand all reasoning a fore mentioned about business and profit time spent creating, etc, however YSSY will have a much further reach than just Aussie shores and if not for anything else, just to complete the set so to speak, eastcoast clearly the most populated airspace in Aus MEL SYD BNE all fully represented. I understand ORBX has a clear affinity with VFR flying and small GA strips and caters majorty to the GA side of aviation but I see YSSY akin to a statue or landmark building in a city, a showpiece of such.

Make of this what you will, but of all the talk of abandonment I don't think you are, I think you are making the right choices to maintain a future for ORBX, but NO YSSY is a HUGE disappointment to myself and a few friends.

regards,

Jason

[Derek McAllan]

*snip*

Bluey said it as well as I could have, but I just wanted to apologise if my earlier message was misconstrued as indicating I was in any way ungrateful for what orbx has produced to date.  My statements were not intended as an attack on your business motivations at all, I've already stated my ongoing support for your products many times over.

Am I being selfish or parochial?  Maybe so, but that is my prerogative as a customer... the AU regions are fantastic but the Western 75% of the nation needs a lot more love and that is why I was a bit disappointed to see YPPH in particular dropped.  Yes, we have fantastic coverage via OZx.  Yes, you've been very charitable and given us some awesome freeware over here (YCUN is my default airport!!).  So thankyou for that, and I for one would hate to see that come to an end.

No, I have not forgotten what FSX was like before your team's contribution.  The FTX AU product was the only reason I made the switch back from X-Plane, because I was stunned that a) someone was giving Terra Australis the treatment it deserves, and that that treatment would turn out to be the best quality addon product for FSX period.  However I think I was within my right to make the assumption that we would see development of major airports right across the country rather than just the east coast.  I understand that these are expensive to produce and maybe not as profitable as a little private field in the PNW region.  I also understand your need to focus your products on the largest market, which is definitely not here in Oz.  I take some heart from your last post saying that you are not abandoning further development of the AU product, but I can't see how that will fit into the roadmap with 3 more US regions and NZ to come, and all the attendant airfields that go with those.

I guess what I'd like to know is what is the long term plan for FTX AU?  Can we eventually expect to see more large airports here or not?  Is development going to continue to be a more or less focussed on the East Coast?  Should I just abandon flying here and start collecting PNW airfields?  That may sound harsh, but it's something I need to consider... I don't have unlimited funds to spend on airfields.  Am I (or others like me) going to be better off by investing in US products rather than AU, if that is the future direction of orbx?  Although, it occurs to me that by answering these questions my concerns may become self fulfilling - if you make the suggestion that the majority of future development lies in satisfying the US market demands then many could start investing less in the AU products, thereby dooming the future of further AU products.

Once again, I'm not trying to stir up trouble or criticise you or your team personally.  I merely wish to know which way I should be pointing my limited orbx investments for the greatest experience.

Thankyou for your consideration if you choose to answer any of my q's

Derek (not a spoiled brat, nor crying  )

[John Lovell]

I'd be more than happy to set up a monthly donation to Orbx in helping you guys get something back..... all voluntarily because I would like to.. I think I small contribution from allot of Orbx supporters would help allot

All the hard work you are all putting in for us FSX junkies speaks volumes and I can hardly begin to imagine how you manage to break even and stay in business...

Yet we all continue to demand and a minority of us not understand how much time and finance has to go into such amazing quality products.

[Flying Monkey]

I am still amazed that we got a so much detailed rendition of Oz in FSX, and that we went there so fast and as a result of the initiative of just OrbX and OzX. Which country can claim such a level of detail (Don't answer Switzerland, not fair! )? I certainly didn't expect this, and for such a low price too. Even if they would stop entirely now, which John said they aren't, how could any of us accuse them of neglecting Oz? No seriously, I can only thank them, nothing else.

I can guess many reasons not to do YSSY. This one would take forever to develop, and just imagine how hard it would be to both achieve the kind of level of details we expect from OrbX while having to optimize it (it's huge, surrounded by dense urban stretches and with the CBD scenery in view...).

I'm not so interested in North America, I'll probably limit myself to linking NA blue to the Tongass fjords, but I can understand the commercial wisdom in developing this continent. I wish we could see something about Europe (I'd love a FTX France). The NZ developments are great news.

[Guest strider]

:'( LOL,,,, 

OMG, this too funny !!

[John York]

FTX Europe....now that would be something!

John

[John Venema]

Yes we do want to do YPPH and YPAD and YSSY. In fact, we have ground imagery and an airside access contact for YSSY already, but the main issue is one of resources and just keeping an eye on the sales performance of all our products.  Yes I agree a YSSY would sell very well, but I am just not quite ready to commit three guys on it for 18 months or more right now. That may well change in the future, but don't count on those for 2010/11. We may well tackle them in late 2011 if our revenues grow to the point of expanding the team to invest in such projects again.

Another thing I didn't mention: Marty and Russ were really, really burnt out after YBBN. It's a masterpiece of work, but it came at a personal cost to them, and they are now planning smaller individual solo projects (no less spectacular), to recuperate.