active Strange winter/snow scenery

[Dreamsofwings1]

Hi all,

 

Been doing some winter flying around Canada and also at Sumburgh and noticed some strange scenery.  The screenshots below are from Sumburgh.  Very geometric patterns/triangles.  As you can see there are some saw tooth lines and then areas of triangles.  Also seen what looks like rows of small pyramids and what look like inverted pyramids.  Sometimes the snow texture is late to load up so flying towards green country and then white snow squares start popping up.  Any ideas or pointers greatly appreciated.  Without the snow all looks fine!

 

Using Orbx Sumburgh, FTX, EU Scotland, Global, Vector, Openlc NA in the respective areas when this is happening.

[Jethro VH-JET]

Hi Rob,

 

It looks to me, more like a problem with your cloud shadows, you might take a look at the settings in your DX10 fixer configuration panel.

[Doc Scott]

40 minutes ago, Jeff Gilmour said:

Hi Rob,

 

It looks to me, more like a problem with your cloud shadows, you might take a look at the settings in your DX10 fixer configuration panel.

I agree,it's a matter of settings.

 

Scott 

[Dreamsofwings1]

This could well make a lot of sense!

 

Any pointers as to what settings might be causing the issue?  I've had a look at the fixer (I don't have the cloud shadows add on by the way) and can't see anything obvious?

[Dreamsofwings1]

Just quickly been up again at Sumburgh with no weather selected and the effect still seems to be there.  Have taken quite a few shots this time to try and illustrate this a bit better...

As you can see there are pyramid shapes, sawtooth coastlines in some places and similar edges on land in some places.  Also some lines that seem to pass across tiles.  Seems more pronounced in immediate vicinity of Sumburgh.

 

[Jethro VH-JET]

My apologies Rob,  upon seeing your first screenies and your sig details (DX10 fixer), it looked like a problem with the new DX10 fixer Cloud shadows, what looked to me like a shadow effect with all those weird shaped shadow polys, might not be after all. (as you say: (you don't have the DX10 cloud Shadow component) 

Have you possibly installed a new graphics driver lately, did you then replace your "Shaders10" folder.

 

I am unable to crosscheck Sumburgh for this condition or the sawtooth and pyramid effect seen in your latest screenies. Perhaps another Sumburgh user can check their scene in winter from those locations to confirm your findings. Or wait to see what Orbx staff can make of these features.

You might check that your Mesh Resolution slider is set to 5m or what the EGPB user guide PDF recommends. Reading the EGPB product page Sumburgh has custom terrain so I would not expect to see unusual sawtooth or pyramid structures. As for the shadowy snow effect I hope someone like Adam Banks can enlighten what settings might be best when using the DX10 Fixer if indeed the shadow problem is related. 

[Dreamsofwings1]

Hi Jeff, no I am still using an older stable nvidia driver be because the newer ones were causing crashes.
Ive never replaced the Shaders 10 folder. Is this something I should be doing once in a while to get it fresh?
Appreciate your help by the way!


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[Jethro VH-JET]

Hi Rob,

 

Not really something I would do on a routine basis, though it certainly wouldn't hurt to refresh your "Shaders10" folder in this case.

C:\Users\{YourUserName}\AppData\Local\Microsoft\FSX  Delete the \Shaders10 folder or move it to a backup location for safe keeping. FSX will build a new one on next sim startup, the sim will reinstate all shadows and shaders after a short while flying into different TOD's and seasons.

 

This will only address the shadow issue if your DX10 fixer settings are set right. It will not address the Sawtooth effect or Pyramid structures, these will need to be checked by the EGPB developers or Or other Orbx staff.

[Dreamsofwings1]

Cheers Jeff, thanks for taking time to explain.


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[Dreamsofwings1]

Still not been able to figure this one out. Any help much appreciated. I'm not seeing it without snow textures and all my settings seem correct.


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[petfy]

The sun is in a low position. Could it be simply the shadow of the headland or high ground on the snow?

[Dreamsofwings1]

No, they are glitches eg the 'pyramid' like shapes lower left in first picture. Certainly some of it is shadows but there are some unusual lines and triangular patterns going on.


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[mole_man99]

It really looks like a DX10 and/or driver issue. Does it happen on default scenery with snow? It is probably happening everywhere, you just see it better on snow.

 

Have you tried returning to dx9 to see if issue is still there? I think DX10 fixer makes the process painless.

 

Also look into your Anisotropic filtering settings, just to check. Filtering is what makes the gradual changes from one block of colour to another. It may also be at play with the shadows.

 

Did you follow the DX10 guidance on setting in nvidia inspector? It is quite important to get the AA and filtering settings correct for your installation.

[Dreamsofwings1]

It really looks like a DX10 and/or driver issue. Does it happen on default scenery with snow? It is probably happening everywhere, you just see it better on snow.

 

Have you tried returning to dx9 to see if issue is still there? I think DX10 fixer makes the process painless.

 

Also look into your Anisotropic filtering settings, just to check. Filtering is what makes the gradual changes from one block of colour to another. It may also be at play with the shadows.

 

Did you follow the DX10 guidance on setting in nvidia inspector? It is quite important to get the AA and filtering settings correct for your installation.

Not tried default. I have OrBX Global and also Vector but I will try and test an area that doesn't have an OpenLc addon.

Have't tried in DX9. I might give that a whirl. I followed the setup guidance on NVI and have that all running in accordance with the guide.

Odd how it is only snow scenery that seems to be effected and only certain areas. Eg took a flight out of Yellowknife a couple of weeks ago and scenery was good apart from 3 inverted pyramid shaped craters in the ground.

Will run some further testing later.


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[Holger Sandmann]

Hi there,

 

are you using any third-party add-on mesh files? I have seen similar geometric shapes in my own files when I didn't compile the source data correctly. The white ground textures and low sun angles would make this issue more obvious at this time of the year as the dynamic terrain shading enhances the terrain surface.

 

Cheers, Holger  

[Dreamsofwings1]

Hi Holgar,

 

No, I only have ORBX scenery.

[Dreamsofwings1]

Added some more pictures from different areas.  Innsbruck was perfect, couldn't see a glitch around there.  Yellowknife had the strange indentations in the earth, mainly where it seemed there were small lakes.  Wick was spot on apart from that sawtooth coastline.

 

 

[mole_man99]

Those are weird. Looks like your terrain mesh is not smoothing for some reason.
 

To attempt to trace the cause, I would;

 

1. Go to effected area, then hit Y for slew to stop there. Disable orbx mesh in the world/scenery library menu and see if the default mesh then has same issue. ORbx mesh folders normally say mesh. Disable them all if not sure.

 

2. If it effects default too, try rebuilding a default cfg file. Rename fsx.cfg to fsx.cfg.backup and restart. You may get a few issues as your driver is set for DX10, but it should not effect mesh smoothing. If that solves it, I would set about turning this new cfg into the new one. You need to set it up again for DX10.

 

3. If it is still there, I would then rename scenery.cfg in  the same folder as fsx.cfg (not the one in main FSX folder) to scenery.cfg.backup. FSX will then create a new one with only default scenery. If that solves it, you have an errant scenery somewhere.

 

Reverse the renaming to go back to your original scenery library and cfg file.

[Dreamsofwings1]

Thanks mol_man99 will give that a try!


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[mole_man99]

Scenery.cfg is actually in C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\FSX by default, not with the fsx.cfg.

 

It is definitly worth getting things back to default to see what you have, then start adding the orbx back in again. You may see strange land textures as orbx changes the lclookup.bgl file which then confuses default landclass, but it should still allow you to see if your mesh is working properly.

[Dreamsofwings1]

Scenery.cfg is actually in C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\FSX by default, not with the fsx.cfg.

 

It is definitly worth getting things back to default to see what you have, then start adding the orbx back in again. You may see strange land textures as orbx changes the lclookup.bgl file which then confuses default landclass, but it should still allow you to see if your mesh is working properly.

Many thanks for taking the time to help! Will fire up the sim tonight and have a look!


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[Dreamsofwings1]

Well I am stumped.

 

I followed your steps Mole_man99 and the issue was there until I took out all add on scenery and went back to basic default (my lord what a reminder of how awful the pre Orbx world looked!) when it was smoother. 

I have also tried taking mesh out etc but nothing seems to solve it.  Having reloaded my two .cfgs back in I went to PAVD and it is perfect there so whatever is causing this seems to be localised rather than across all scenery.  I think I will just have to live with it and hope that at some point something 'clicks' into place with an update/install unless anyone has any other ideas about it?

[mole_man99]

Can you find it happening anywhere in orbx England? I don't have Scotland and it's mesh.

 

Also if you disable the orbx Scotland mesh does it resolve things at Sumburgh?

[Dreamsofwings1]

Can you find it happening anywhere in orbx England? I don't have Scotland and it's mesh.

 

Also if you disable the orbx Scotland mesh does it resolve things at Sumburgh?

Not tried testing the snow in England yet. Yes i followed your steps and disabled all ORbx mesh but it was still there. Its really very strange.
I actually noticed a similar effect, thought not as spread by any means, on coast at Greenland but was limited to what I see at Sumburgh.


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[Dreamsofwings1]

Still not been able to figure this one out...any other ideas much appreciated, even if it is just to say that you are seeing the same thing so I know I am not going mad!

[Dreamsofwings1]

Could someone possibly do me a huge favour and take a flight out of Sumburgh or Yellowknife in snow and let me know if you see same thing. I've noticed it is there without snow but snow just makes it easier to spot. I have spent a lot of time trying to figure this out and if it is just the way it is in the sim for everybody rather than a glitch with my sim I'd rather stop trying to bang my head against the wall. Many thanks.


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[petfy]

Sumburg in FSX with OpenLC EU and FreemeshX.

 

What is evident is that sand dunes don't have snow on them.

[Jethro VH-JET]

Hello Rob,

 

I posted earlier on in your topic, but was unable to provide you with an answer that resolved your issue, as I don't have some of the software needed to test/crosscheck under the same conditions. (I would only be able to check these areas as Default FSX with FTXGlobalBase).

 

With regard to your pictures in Post # ID:17,  some of those coastline shapes, sunken lakes and raised & inverted pyramid shapes do look wrong. But in order to crosscheck your exact position you will need to supply exact time of day, date & season, as well as software in use for your the location, and most importantly co-ordinates on your pictures using Shift+Z key..

Also, as some shadows and reflective glass elements coming from tinted glass on some aircraft in 3D virtual cockpit view can confuse the users viewpoint with regard to terrain shadow, you might like to eliminate any reflective elements from cockpit windows from your screenies by choosing an external view (Spot view) or select / cycle 2D cockpit using "A" key then (Shift+W  - usually twice to remove instruments from view) so that only the scenery is shown. 

It is quite difficult / frustrating to guestimate without essential information for crosscheck, with regard to TOD and Seasonal variation (Date) at these Latitude's. Having the extra information will make it easier for someone with the same setup to check the (exact location, TOD & date within winter season).

[Dreamsofwings1]

Hello Rob,

 

I posted earlier on in your topic, but was unable to provide you with an answer that resolved your issue, as I don't have some of the software needed to test/crosscheck under the same conditions. (I would only be able to check these areas as Default FSX with FTXGlobalBase).

 

With regard to your pictures in Post # ID:17,  some of those coastline shapes, sunken lakes and raised & inverted pyramid shapes do look wrong. But in order to crosscheck your exact position you will need to supply exact time of day, date & season, as well as software in use for your the location, and most importantly co-ordinates on your pictures using Shift+Z key..

Also, as some shadows and reflective glass elements coming from tinted glass on some aircraft in 3D virtual cockpit view can confuse the users viewpoint with regard to terrain shadow, you might like to eliminate any reflective elements from cockpit windows from your screenies by choosing an external view (Spot view) or select / cycle 2D cockpit using "A" key then (Shift+W  - usually twice to remove instruments from view) so that only the scenery is shown. 

It is quite difficult / frustrating to guestimate without essential information for crosscheck, with regard to TOD and Seasonal variation (Date) at these Latitude's. Having the extra information will make it easier for someone with the same setup to check the (exact location, TOD & date within winter season).

Understood Jeff, I appreciate you trying to help. I will do exactly what you are suggesting and will also make a video so its easier to see exactly what I am talking about.
Will post it all up tomorrow.



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[Dreamsofwings1]

...ok created this video and also some stills below it which hopefully will illustrate the issues I am seeing.

 

One thing I have notices is that the mesh seems to get worse the closer it gets.  You can actually see it "pop" onto those straight edged forms as if it is ok at a distance but once the aircraft gets to a certain distance to the scenery it loses the mesh resolution and goes into ZX Spectrum mode!

 

EGPB is 4th February 2017 at 13:56 and CYZF is 1st January 2017 at 12 noon local.

 

 

Further to this some pictures from EGPB taken without cockpit

[Holger Sandmann]

Hi there,

 

looks like my initial suspicion was correct, except that I didn't realize that the issue is with the mesh file included with EGPB itself. It only covers the immediate airport area and doesn't fill the entire local terrain grid cells, which leads to the geometric shapes outside of its boundaries.

 

If you disable ORBX_EGPB_Mesh_LVL2_ST.BGL or ORBX_EGPB_Mesh_LVL2.BGL (depending on which runway option is enabled in the EGPB control panel) those large shapes disappear. I'm actually not seeing any detrimental effect with the mesh file disabled so perhaps the easiest solution is to just keep it inactive.

 

FYI, the smaller "sawtooth" patterns along some of the shorelines, like in your previous screenshot of Wick, are "normal" behaviour of the sim and not mesh errors. If the terrain mesh is forced into a cliff face by local shoreline/water or airport flatten polygons then that reveals the underlying N-S/E-W grid pattern of the sim's terrain display. The lower the mesh resolution slider (or the greater the distance from the user aircraft) the less obvious the pattern. However, lower slider settings obviously make the overall terrain display less realistic and may cause compatibility problems with the placement of 3D objects, which is why here at Orbx we all design to the same 5-m "standard".

 

Cheers, Holger

[Dreamsofwings1]

Thanks indeed Holgar.  That has fixed the problem nicely!  Looks so much better and more natural.  I'm only left with some curious "terracing" shade patterns which when I got pretty much wheels down on it looks more like texture rather than a mesh issue.  Looks a heck of a lot better now though thanks to your fix

Below are some pictures including one of how the previously corrupted area is now fixed and also a few showing this "terracing".

 

Do you know what might be causing the issue in Yellowknife by the way?  Appears to be where there are tiny lakes the mesh drops the terrain height right down causing these unusual square or rectangular troughs shown in my video,

 

[Holger Sandmann]

Hi again,

 

terracing can occur if either the mesh source data is restricted to 1-m elevation steps or the mesh .bgl was compiled without the flag for sub-meter interpolation. In the case of EGPB it's the ORBX_EGPB_Mesh_LVL1_ST.BGL / ORBX_EGPB_Mesh_LVL1.BGL files that causes those steps. You can experiment with deactivating that as well but it does affect the terrain around the airport so you may want to take some before/after screenshots from the same position and date.

 

As for sunken or elevated lakes, those usually indicate a mismatch between the terrain data used for determining their fixed elevations and the installed mesh file. For example, see http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/102648-anyone-using-ftx-vector-with-fsx-default-mesh/#comment-927009 

 

 

Cheers, Holger 

[Dreamsofwings1]

Thanks Holgar. Been thinking of getting the Pilots Global 2010 mesh actually so that might fix those issues. Appreciate your help sir.


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[Dreamsofwings1]

so waiting for my Global 2010 Mesh to arrive (ordered DVDs as my internet too slow) but thought I would take a flight out of Norman Wells CYVQ and to my surprise found they have the opposite problem to the famous sunken lakes of Yellowknife!!

Something seriously wrong here but hoping the Global 2010 Mesh will solve it.

 

[Holger Sandmann]

Hi again,

 

that's indeed the effect of the default terrain mesh; see http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/102356-geographical-representation/

 

 

FYI, I've received word from Lars Pinkenburg, the Sumburgh developer, that he's completed a much improved local terrain mesh and that a service pack will soon be in the hands of our Beta testers.

 

Cheers, Holger

[Dreamsofwings1]

Hi again,

 

that's indeed the effect of the default terrain mesh; see http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/102356-geographical-representation/

 

 

FYI, I've received word from Lars Pinkenburg, the Sumburgh developer, that he's completed a much improved local terrain mesh and that a service pack will soon be in the hands of our Beta testers.

 

Cheers, Holger

Thanks Holgar and great news from Lars. He certainly did a great job on Sumburgh and will be perfect with the new mesh.


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[Dreamsofwings1]

Just to park and power off on this, I installed the Pilots Global 2010 for FTX and it has fixed my weird terrain issues in Norman Wells. Can heartily recommend it by the way. Scenery looks incredibly now combined with the ORBX products!


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