Nvidia 3D Vision overview and 3D Surround (Orbx becomes reality)

[slipstream]

I am aware of the previous topics here in ref to 3D and know that John V is an avid user.

If you fly Orbx then the chances are you are General Aviators, or Rotary like myself. If that is the case then you are massively missing out if you do not fly the Orbx world in 3D. Amazing is the only word to describe. I am just going to mention exactly (idiots guide) the requirements for single and Triple vision, and what is available out there right now.

You require either Vista 32, 64 or Win 7 32 or 64.

A reasonable CPU, a core 2 duo or AMD equivalent,

A GEForce 8800 GT and higher, 9600 GT and higher, or any GeForce 200 series or higher.

A 120Hz refresh rate monitor or Projector: Acer GD24HQ : Alienware OptxAW2310 (Top 2) : Acer H5360 PJ 720p

An Nvidia 3D Vision Kit (Glasses, IR Emitter)

http://www.nvidia.com/object/3D_Vision_Requirements.html

Unfortunately for me and many others the 3D surround driver is not going to be released until the end of June so I have 2 monitors sitting idle for another 6 weeks. Gutted. In order to have surround 3D then you require a rig that is similar to mine (see sig). The main requirement is 2 X GeForce 480’s in SLI so that you have a, the 3 monitor outputs and b, the horsepower to drive the 3 3D displays all at 1080p for each monitor giving a total of 5760 horizontal pixel resolution.

For single display 3D output then you will require the 197.41 and same stereo driver

Below are 2 shots of a surround system and you can clearly see 2 X GTX 480's in SLI each with an 8 pin and 6 pin power connector. It is advised that you have at least a 1000 Watt PSU in order to cope with this set-up.

There are lots of rumours of the GTX 400 series cards getting very hot and very noisy. When I ran the DX11 (tesselation) Unigine Heaven benchmark program then agreed there was considerable fan noise and heat. However when running FSX

there is no problem with either issue.

Any questions please ask here. (The total cost for a surround system is approx 4,000 GBP or 6,500 AUD)

[img width=933 height=700]http://i40.tinypic.com/28jvgqp.jpg

[Remko]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I have been considering display options for my new PC that I'm about to purchase. 3D certainly has been a consideration, as well as having 3 screens. Having both would be fantastic!

Please keep us posted about your experience. My main concern (besides the price of 2x 480 and 3x 120Hz monitor) is how well FSX will work with these two cards in SLI. I have no personal experience, but it seems to be the common view that SLI and FSX don't work together very well. For that reason I have been considering one of the ATI cards with Eyefinity as having 3 screens with one of these should be straightforward. Having said that they don't seem to perform as well with FTX as the 480.

As the 3D surround drivers have not been released yet, have you tried using all 3 monitors without 3D yet? Did it work? What's the performance like?

I hope for you it has been worth the investment!

Happy flying!

[John Rambo]

Thank you for sharing!

I have some questions:

What about the frame rate? I once heard that 3D effectively cuts it in half, is that true?

What about the distance to the screen? Is that the reason why you mounted the joystick to the chair?

Why is there still plastic on the monitors? I know stupid question but I'm just wondering

Cheers!

[slipstream]

Thanks Remko, I haven't tried connecting the other 2 monitors up as their is no driver, nvidia or otherwise, to test the 5760 horizontal pixel resolution. However, I am confident that there will be no issue with performance in FSX with 2 more screens. I agree that I don't believe that FSX has been coded correctly to take account of SLI but I have seen a huge improvement since exchanging from my 200 series card. I can happily fly around YBBN now maxed out at 30fps. And bear in mind that I am running under an oldish (bodged for 480 cards to run in single screen 3D) geforce driver. When the 256 surround branch driver is released end of June, I expect to see an increase in performance.

quote from marketing manager nvidia [i have been talking to a lot of our customers over the last few months and many of the most enthusiastic among them are asking when we'll have our driver update to support 3D Vision Surround. We're also get the same inquiries from press folks looking to do reviews of 3D Vision Surround.

The fact is we are not ready yet – the surround driver needs some final improvements. When we first showed this technology live at CES in January, we expected this to become available with the first release of our 256 branch driver which was then targeted for April. Our new target for 3D Vision Surround is the end of June in a follow-on release of this 256 driver branch. Our first 256 based driver is planned to post to nvidia.com on May 24th and will enable new SLI setup controls and improve performance on several key applications for GTX 400 GPUs.]

[slipstream]

John, I have no framerate drop whatsoever when toggling between 2D and 3D which is kinda strange, I know. This 50 percent drop in frames is rubbish. I have been an avid stereoscopic user for many years (the CRT days) and I never had an issue with large frame drop. However, if you are struggling now with frames then you will have issues I would suggest. You will drop more frames using anaglyph (red / blue) so do not use that as a benchmark.

It matters not where you sit in reference to the monitor, although I sit closer in 3D as I am looking into the screen. At 120hz there is no flickering issue at all. You do lose brightness but the Acer monitor is very bright which compensates for that loss in lumens.

I do need to get rid of that wrapping on the monitors. Thanks for the reminder.

[JoseCFII]

This is great news. I'm also looking to upgrade to an SLI configuration.

I was hoping for improved performance using the BP=0 tweak. I have seen dramatic improvements on most sceneries, but not in Seattle and YBBN.

The 3D vision is something to look forward to.

Please share your HQ settings and how well it is working using FSX and the SLI configuration. This will make it a lot easier for me to upgrade.

[slipstream]

HQ settings? Roger that, will do shortly. I only ever run FSX on a default fsx.cfg and do not use nhancer if that helps.

[John Rambo]

John, I have no framerate drop whatsoever when toggling between 2D and 3D which is kinda strange, I know. This 50 percent drop in frames is rubbish. I have been an avid stereoscopic user for many years (the CRT days) and I never had an issue with large frame drop. However, if you are struggling now with frames then you will have issues I would suggest. You will drop more frames using anaglyph (red / blue) so do not use that as a benchmark.

It matters not where you sit in reference to the monitor, although I sit closer in 3D as I am looking into the screen. At 120hz there is no flickering issue at all. You do lose brightness but the Acer monitor is very bright which compensates for that loss in lumens.

I do need to get rid of that wrapping on the monitors. Thanks for the reminder.

I'm really glad to hear about the fps!

Some more questions:

What happens when there are non 3D objects on the screen? Assume you're flying a complex PMDG aircraft and you need to click all the time. What does the cursor look like and where is it? I mean, is it like in front of everything or somewhere in the middle? What about the fsx menu bar, the ATC window, other 2D popup gauges etc?

Cheers

[slipstream]

All 2D panels remain in 2D, however, all outside views will render in 3D. Cursor remains 2D and it appears normal, and the fsx / fs9 menu bar renders in 2D.

[j0nx]

I've been flying in 3d across my 3 monitors using the nvidia anaglyph technology with my th2g setup for a while now and it is awesome. As coincidence would have it, I ordered the acer 24" 3d monitor and nvidia shutter glasses this morning for a single monitor 3d solution until later this year when I am confident that nvidia can deliver on a solid 3d surround experience. If I see solid results from that then I will grab another 480 and 2 more acer 3d monitors at that time. I will unfortunately have to buy a new psu as well since the 750 I currently use probably won't cut the mustard. Can't wait for you to tell us how it works in a few months.

[Jasmckee]

well if it is anything like the 3d movies, it is a no go for me, wearing glasses and 3d is not compatable, i get really bad headaches, and can feel really wonky, also my eyes go all funny and i can't see right for about half an hour afterwards.  it seems to affect some poeple worse than others, i am one of the badly affected ones,  it is a shame because i want to go and watch some movies at the pics, but the ones i want to see are only out in 3d, i guess i will have to wait until the blu ray is released

[slipstream]

Jonx, if you enjoy the anaglyph experience then wait until you get those shutters on. Please report back on your experience for others. The surround driver should be released in approx 6 weeks time, which is slightly longer than the marketing email I received from nvidia stating April.  :'( :'( :'(

Jas, maybe worth popping to the opticians as many 'wannabe but can't' 3D enthusiasts have been cured by a simple eye test and subsequent prescription glasses. The nvidia glasses are specifically designed to fit over prescription spectacles. Also bear in mind that cinema's utilise a polarised solution which means wearing 2 dollar glasses, and keeping your head straight. Nvidia uses Liquid Crystal shutter glasses which give each eye 60 frames every second. The great thing about the nvidia solution is that you can start with a 1 percent separation and work up to a comfortable medium, for me 75 percent.

[Jasmckee]

Jonx, if you enjoy the anaglyph experience then wait until you get those shutters on. Please report back on your experience for others. The surround driver should be released in approx 6 weeks time, which is slightly longer than the marketing email I received from nvidia stating April.  :'( :'( :'(

Jas, maybe worth popping to the opticians as many 'wannabe but can't' 3D enthusiasts have been cured by a simple eye test and subsequent prescription glasses. The nvidia glasses are specifically designed to fit over prescription spectacles. Also bear in mind that cinema's utilise a polarised solution which means wearing 2 dollar glasses, and keeping your head straight. Nvidia uses Liquid Crystal shutter glasses which give each eye 60 frames every second. The great thing about the nvidia solution is that you can start with a 1 percent separation and work up to a comfortable medium, for me 75 percent.

I wear perscription glasses and have jsut had the eyes checked about two months ago, the main reason i have problems is that the two eyes are completly differnent scripts, and that wearing no glasses causes issues, and wearing my glasses with the 3d throws everything out of wack.

it is funny though, my wife had eplipsy gorwing up, and she has the same issues as me, but she doesn't need/wear glasses.

i think i will have to get my 3d fix by looking out the window

[j0nx]

Hung the new monitor on the wall above my 3" 19" monitors that I use for my th2g and so far it is pretty cool. The effect is no different at all from the anaglyph 3d that nvidia provides for free, but now there is no loss of color and no annoying red tinge to everything. All colors and most of the brightness are kept intact. Some games drop precipitously in frame rate while others barely move at all. BC2 for whatever reason runs the same speed in 3d as it does normally. Cod4 and Codwaw lag a bit but hover pretty close to the 60fps max which is 120fps in reality. codmw2 runs amazing in 3d and imo is by FAR the most impressive game i have tried, even better than batman which is apparently the game that 3d was designed for. Have not tried crysis yet but am guessing it will be around 24fps with all settings maxed because that's what it was while using the anaglyph 3d. It's around 38fps average with 3d mode disabled with everything maxed as high as it goes so that shows you the level of percentage drop when you enable 3d in some games.

The greatest benefit to this purchase though was the 120hz upgrade, irrespective of the 3d. Games are SOOOO much more fluid on this monitor in non 3d mode than on my old 60hz monitor. It's like liquid glass now at 120hz with vsynch turned on. Flight sim looks great but I just can't fly on a single monitor because I get no sense of surround and can't judge my location or proximity to things. I require the 3 monitor solution to fly but the th2g does not support the nvidia shutter glass 3d solution. Eventually I will get 2 more of these monitors and another gtx480 (and new psu) but that purchase is at least 6 months away.

On a more observational note, I can't really see how even dual gtx480's could run 3 of these monitors in 3d without serious lag and fps issues in many games. Even as beastly as the gtx480 is, I am at my minimum acceptable level of frame rate in some games while in 3d mode and that is only with a single monitor pushing 1920x1080x2(for 3d rendering) pixels. Tripling the amount of pixels but only doubling (at best, considering SLI only scales 50-90%) the horsepower and I really don't see how even 2 gtx 480's would be enough to provide for an adequate frame rate in these games in 3d surround since 3d surround will in turn effectively double the amount of pixels compared to non 3d mode. More than 12,000,000+ effective pixels would need to be rendered in a 3d surround solution. My single gtx480 is being SERIOUSLY taxed rendering an effective 4,000,000+ pixels right now. Don't see how adding another card and 3 more monitors would lead to anything other than massive drops in fps in most games. At least with flight sim we don't have to worry so much about that because resolution makes absolutely no difference in the frame rate you get since the game is so heavily cpu dependent. I think 3d surround will be amazing for flight sim but the current hardware, even the mighty gtx 480, is just not going to be powerful enough to deal with 1920x1080x3x2(for 3d rendering) pixels in most games without massively scaling back the AA, AF, and other eye candy. Just my observations so far. Cool technology though!

[slipstream]

750,000,000 pixels per second will be rendered with the release of the 256 branch driver in 3D surround mode. Close to the holy grail of a billion.

[John Venema]

Here's what we picked up last week - http://www.samsung.com/au/consumer/tv-audio-video/3d-products/3d-led-tv/UA55C7000WFXXY/index.idx?pagetype=prd_detail&returnurl=

55 inches of 3D monitor goodness and it uses a zero-driver 2D->3D system (i.e. it will work with Radeon cards also). Put one of these babies behind your keyboard and you'll never ever think about wanting three 'little' TH2GO monitors ever again.

The unit is thinner than our Samsung 30" LCD monitors (LED TVs generate much less heat and are incredibly thin), comes with two active shutter glasses (50 hour battery powered; re-chargeable units also available), and ships with a copy of Aliens Vs. Monsters in 3D Blu-Ray DVD, which is the most amazing 3D video footage I've seen (ever better than Avatar IMAX 3D).

I plugged in a laptop with HDMI 1920x1080 output, ran FSX and loaded up 7S3 Twin Oaks in the Cub. Activate 2D to 3D mode and viola! Beautifully clear 3D with zero FPS loss and with such huge image in front of me the sense of depth was amazing.  For the Aussies here, I got it from JB HiFi for A$3899, which was $600 off RRP (although the sales manager was literally in tears at that price). If you send in your receipt, Samsung will ship you a free 3D Blu-Ray DVD player and an extra 2 pairs of active glasses.

I also tested with an XBOX 360 and PS3 and indeed it turns all 2D games into 3D very effectively. I had Avatar the game on PS3 and if you invoke the side-by-side 3D mode for that game it works in native 3D on the Samsung, which was quite amazing to see.

Finally, it also converts regular broadcast and pay TV into 3D, although it works better when viewing HD TV versus older SD stuff.

We are working on a project with Andreas Paschen (Variometer) to author 3D Blu-Ray videos of all our products, and we'll be using the Samsung UA55C7000 at the Avalon Airshow next year for our "Orbx 3D Theatre" showcase. We may even release the 3D Blu-Ray showcase as a DVD to purchase off the website.

Anyway, I'll make a seperate post about this since it may interest other people.

[DJSean]

Looks great

Thanks John! now all I need is $3899  LOL 

[Guest AS355F]

$4000 for a TV, are you mad?

There will be much better 3D out soon where you don't need those ridiculous glasses either.

[slipstream]

That must be incredible, imagine 3 of those in surround. LED is the way to go for me, in order to reduce heat output as much as possible. Does that particular model render full 1080p per eye, frame sequential? I hope its not checkerboard.

I know that the 3D Panasonic TV's, releasing soon, are full HD 3D, as Nvidia are releasing software (3DTV Play) to ensure compatability with their hardware. Free download for current 3D vision owners.

[philby]

Hi and thanks to all for there posts on 3D and FSX Orbx.

I have a question that maybe some one can answer about 3D

My eyesight in one eye is slightly worse than right eye. However not bad enough where I need glasses, it can be called a lazy eye.

I think that was why when Edimension 3D glases came out awhile ago for FS, that I could not see 3D, however technology of 3D has come a long way since then, I mena that was when we still had CRT monitors.

Would my eyesight problem stop me from seeing 3D with current technology.?

I have a rig good enough to run it plus a GTX 285 card, just not the monitor yet.

I do have a pair of so called 3D glasses, cheap ones, which when I wear then on Nvidia's web site where you can check out what you need for 3D and the distored green and red image becomes clear when I use these glasses.

I guess this may not be possible for others to answer and maybe best way to check is visit a retailer who are selling Samsung 3D TV's and see for myself.

But if any do have a view on my query, please reply.

TIA

Phil

[JWxTreme]

Exciting technology! TV's have really changed in the past few years. I'm one of the 5 percent who have stereo-blindness. 3D glasses do not work for me since my eyes don't work together to process stereo images.

[John Venema]

Nvidia have now announced 3DTV Play, which means you can get the identical 3DVision quality 3D using the Samsung or other HDMI 3D TVs!

http://www.nvidia.com/object/3D_TV_play.html

[j0nx]

philby your best bet is to go to bestbuy and demo their 3d tv display that they will have set up. you might also try going to a local microcenter or frys and see if they have an nvidia 3d vision display set up.

slipstream: i figured you would be installing win7 x86 on a spare drive with the leaked beta drivers to test out nv3ds or are you just waiting for the 64 bit drivers? can't wait to see the dodo across 3 of these babies some day. either that or i might just get a 40" 3d tv in here with this new nvidia 3d play software. Problem with those large screens is the fov will be the same. The view might be larger but the immersion is still much greater across 3 smaller monitors.

[slipstream]

Nvidia have now announced 3DTV Play, which means you can get the identical 3DVision quality 3D using the Samsung or other HDMI 3D TVs!

http://www.nvidia.com/object/3D_TV_play.html

John, Check out my post 2 before your last entry. Youtube clip explains 3DTV in detail.

J0nx, I'm just gonna wait as they reckon the 64 bit driver will be leaked shortly. You are better off in surround as you maintain the resolution of 5760 horizontally. Even the default scenery looks respectable at that resolution. Surround users with win 7 32 bit installed, and those that have installed 32 bit, have reported 3D surround as Jaw Dropping. 

[Guest AS355F]

Flight sims need peripheral vision not 3D.

When that happens it will become truly immersive.

[slipstream]

Flight sims need peripheral vision not 3D.

When that happens it will become truly immersive.

Sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about.

63 inches of Horizontal span. How much more peripheral vision do you need? And 3D is a must for flight simmers. 

[philby]

philby your best bet is to go to bestbuy and demo their 3d tv display that they will have set up. you might also try going to a local microcenter or frys and see if they have an nvidia 3d vision display set up.

Yep thanks, that is a smart thing to do, Re 3D TV's, as only Samsung so far appear to be selling 3D, I am not that convinced about Samsung TV quality, if I am not mistaken, Sony actually owns Samsung and they are Sony's cheaper ones.

slipstream: i figured you would be installing win7 x86 on a spare drive with the leaked beta drivers to test out nv3ds or are you just waiting for the 64 bit drivers? can't wait to see the dodo across 3 of these babies some day. either that or i might just get a 40" 3d tv in here with this new nvidia 3d play software. Problem with those large screens is the fov will be the same. The view might be larger but the immersion is still much greater across 3 smaller monitors.

[philby]

Flight sims need peripheral vision not 3D.

When that happens it will become truly immersive.

Sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about.

63 inches of Horizontal span. How much more peripheral vision do you need? And 3D is a must for flight simmers.

Hi Slipstream I would say your rigth there. If anyone has flown for real, you cannot simulate the depth perceiption on landing, especially in light afct. Best one can do with a Sim, is use the eyes down runway, as one does in real life.

I have over 100 hours in a Warrior 161 and also some in a Cessna 172, I think I can speak from experience.

That makes me think if Airlines Sims for their pilots training has gone 3D yet!!

[j0nx]

3d is about the best investment you can make if you are a simmer. I always had trouble in the sim judging my distance to buildings or when coming in for a landing. No more. I can totally tell just how far I am now away from these things now. Helicopter flight has benefited greatly from this extra dimension and since I am almost exclusively a rotor jockey, this setup is amazing for that in ground effect. I have been using the th2g with anaglyph 3d for a while now and literally can't wait to get 3 of these acer monitors setup in surround. 3d vision is so far beyond anaglyph as to be funny. The 3d effect is the same but the colors and vibrancy are almost real world. BTW, you have never seen a game until you have seen the game avatar in 3d. Without 3d the game is mediocre at best. With 3d it literally comes alive on your screen and you are almost teleported to pandora. It's amazing!

[philby]

3d is about the best investment you can make if you are a simmer. I always had trouble in the sim judging my distance to buildings or when coming in for a landing. No more. I can totally tell just how far I am now away from these things now. Helicopter flight has benefited greatly from this extra dimension and since I am almost exclusively a rotor jockey, this setup is amazing for that in ground effect. I have been using the th2g with anaglyph 3d for a while now and literally can't wait to get 3 of these acer monitors setup in surround. 3d vision is so far beyond anaglyph as to be funny. The 3d effect is the same but the colors and vibrancy are almost real world. BTW, you have never seen a game until you have seen the game avatar in 3d. Without 3d the game is mediocre at best. With 3d it literally comes alive on your screen and you are almost teleported to pandora. It's amazing!

Hi , may I asked where you bought the Acer GD235HZ 24" 3D LCD with Nvidia Shutter Glasses  from?

Is there a online aussie retailer, also how much could one expect top pay?

Thanks Phil

[slipstream]

Hi , may I asked where you bought the Acer GD235HZ 24" 3D LCD with Nvidia Shutter Glasses  from?

Is there a online aussie retailer, also how much could one expect top pay?

Thanks Phil

http://www.acer.com.au/acer/buy.do?LanguageISOCtxParam=en&ctx2.c2att1=92&CountryISOCtxParam=AU&ctx1g.c2att92=901&ctx1.att21k=1&CRC=2774010315

[j0nx]

Ran across an interesting issue yesterday. As I said before, I almost exclusively fly helos but decided to take the cessna 152 up for a spin lastnight at vashon 2s1 and found that I had no elevator or aileron control upon takeoff. You could see them moving outside the cockpit just fine but the plane acted like it was on autopilot override for some reason. Well it turns out that when you hit ctrl-t to enable 3d, ctrl-t is already a default mapped control in fsx for the autopilot hold. Needless to say, since I am a rotor jockey, I never ran into this issue until lastnight. I remapped the autopilot control to ctrl-shift-. and away I went!

[Remko]

Hi , may I asked where you bought the Acer GD235HZ 24" 3D LCD with Nvidia Shutter Glasses  from?

Is there a online aussie retailer, also how much could one expect top pay?

I too have not been able to track down a single one here in AU, the Acer distributor site gives me some resellers but none of them have this model!

[philby]

Note yet tried to find a aussie retailer for monitor, but I have a question.

Nvidia control panel has a 3D option you can turn on and if you had the 3D glasses, you can check that you can see the images correctly.

Trouble is, to commit to buying the cost of the glasses first. Hmm, I did have a pair of glases that has the red and green lenses, but I cannot find wheere I have put them. cheap ones, not even sure where I got them, would tey be a reliable test?

Are the Nvidia glases like that, red in one lense, green in the other? or are they more advanced?

Thanks

Phil

[John Venema]

Note yet tried to find a aussie retailer for monitor, but I have a question.

Nvidia control panel has a 3D option you can turn on and if you had the 3D glasses, you can check that you can see the images correctly.

Trouble is, to commit to buying the cost of the glasses first. Hmm, I did have a pair of glases that has the red and green lenses, but I cannot find wheere I have put them. cheap ones, not even sure where I got them, would tey be a reliable test?

Are the Nvidia glases like that, red in one lense, green in the other? or are they more advanced?

Thanks

Phil

Here's a link to an Australian supplier of robust plastic red/cyan glasses - I order from them and they delivered within a few days, cost me less than $25 including shipping. Note these red/cyan glasses will only work in 3DVision "Discover" mode, not the full active-shutter 3D mode.

http://www.oz3d.com.au/product_info.php/cPath/22/products_id/35

[philby]

Thanks John,

For any interested, I found the Acer monitor on Ebay, USA site, might help some.

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=Acer+GD235HZ&_ex_kw=&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_sop=12

I also found a couple of reviews including one by Toms Hardware which some people might know that site, review was bettern Acers one and Alienware one, which I didn't know had one.

Review said both were good, especially with Nvidia glasses, Acer got the node just on contrast and colour display.

Hmm, Dell now sells Alienware instead of the XPS systems, I wonder how long till Dell australia starts selling them, as I checked and Dell USA are about to as part of Aleinware systems

Why are we always so far behind rest of western world with technology!! 64k question I guess. 

[John Venema]

Personally, I would be waiting until the Asus 27" 3D monitor comes into the country:

http://www.tecluv.com/asus-pg276-world-largest-3d-gaming-27-inches-monitor/

[philby]

Personally, I would be waiting until the Asus 27" 3D monitor comes into the country:

http://www.tecluv.com/asus-pg276-world-largest-3d-gaming-27-inches-monitor/

yes tend to agree, although depends on when and price.

I noticed on that page it mentioned another 23inch model by Acer, that was 3D too.  23-inch VG236H

Also according to Acer website, there is a  GD245HQbd.

Which one can get from here.

http://www.itsdirect.com.au/com_products.php?view=detail&category_id=36&sub_category=11&Product_ID=9371

Ah not cheap!!

[slipstream]

http://www.tecluv.com/asus-pg276-world-largest-3d-gaming-27-inches-monitor/

yes tend to agree, although depends on when and price.

I noticed on that page it mentioned another 23inch model by Acer, that was 3D too.  23-inch VG236H

Also according to Acer website, there is a  GD245HQbd.

Which one can get from here.

http://www.itsdirect.com.au/com_products.php?view=detail&category_id=36&sub_category=11&Product_ID=9371

Ah not cheap!!

That equates to 357 GBP. I paid 299 GBP which is a big difference when buying 3 of them. :'(

[philby]

yep

However this may be better option, I found that Dell Au are in fact selling the Alienware ones with systems or one their own.

http://www1.ap.dell.com/au/en/home/alienware-accessories/monitor-alienware-aw2310/pd.aspx?refid=monitor-alienware-aw2310&s=dhs&cs=audhs1