active PAEN ILS DME ?

[polarbear]

Selecting 108.9 does show the correct ILS but I don't get any DME readout.

[Doug Sawatzky]

I think you would need to use the VOR117.6 on your nav2 to get a DME reading...

[polarbear]

117.6 is only for the DME arc and the missed approach.

[tttocs]

polarbear is correct.  The DME associated with ENA (the VOR) is used to fly the arc, but I-ENA (the localizer) should also have DME associated.with it.  The approach plate clearly labels I-ENA as a LOC/DME, and there are fixes on the approach charted as DME distances off I-ENA.

 

Scott

[Doug Sawatzky]

Maybe they changed it lol, check out the below link.... there is no law against using the VOR DME info with the ILS approach, the VOR is 2.5nm from and inline with 19R...

 

http://www.airnav.com/airport/paen

 

I am also running AIRAC 1509 and it shows as just an ILS, not an ILS/DME

  

 

Cheers

 

Doug

 

 

[polarbear]

If you click on the first IAL chart link from the link you provided (ILS OR LOC RWY 20R) you will see that the DME is required (no need to mention the DME in the header).

The IAL is based on the I-ENA DME so can't even use ENA DME. Using it would be definitely against the law

[Doug Sawatzky]

Yes, very interesting   I totally agree with your point, but whether or not there is supposed to be a DME attached to that localiser is still clear as mud IMO lol

[polarbear]

Looking at the profile view of the IAL makes it crystal clear ;) 

[tttocs]

Doug, I'm not sure where your confusion lies.  The chart clearly labels I-ENA as a LOC/DME (see upper left of the approach plate) and as polarbear mentions, the fixes and their DME distances shown in the profile view are all off of I-ENA, not ENA.  There's nothing provided on the plate which would even allow me to use ENA, other than for the arc(s) as charted.

 

When I get home this evening, I'll see if I have any older charts to see if this is a recent change, but that seems unlikely.

 

Scott

[Doug Sawatzky]

Scott

Ok, but a LOC/DME is not the same as an ILS/DME as the title of this post suggests.....also, why would we want to worry about a LOC/DME for runway 20R when there is an ILS?....and the VOR/DME 02L obviously uses the 117.6 while the localizer 108.9 could still be used as a reference for that approach? I am not trying to argue, my intentions are to  just engage in a discussion in hopes that this post will get some more attention. There may very well be a DME attached to the 108.9 at the real airport, but how do we find out for sure? Just because it implies that on a chart? Is there no other way to confirm this? Have you flown in there for real and used DME from 108.9? 

 

Cheers

 

Doug

[polarbear]

@Doug 

Again, look at the profile view where it even says (although it's obvious):  Use I-ENA DME when on the localizer course

When there are DME distances mentioned on the chart you can't simply add and substract distances from other navaids as you like.

Last but not least LOC/DME is the same as ILS. It uses the same ILS antenna and the same DME.

You never use the LOC approach if the ILS is available, just if e.g. the GS is inop etc. and hence not available, you use the LOC approach.

I also don't understand why you question if there's an actual DME, because it's 'only' on a chart. 

There's already a lot of information on the chart. Why clutter it with even more redundant information? 

It would be a bad thing if the charts would be so bad that you have to fly there first to find out if the info is true!

Last but not least, as there is no official LOC BC approach for 02, you can't use the localizer as a reference for the VOR 02 approach.

 

So now, as it is confirmed as missing, my question:

 

Is it planned by the developers to add the missing DME in a patch? 

 

[Ed Correia]

No plans for a patch in all honesty. 

 

You can try the attached file, just cut and paste the PAEN_ADEP2_TRB.bgl file out of the PAEN scenery folder and save it elsewhere for backup. I am assuming this is P3Dv3 here.

 

PAEN_ADEP2_EC.bgl

[polarbear]

I'm pretty much speechless, if that's not a patch I don't know what else is! This one works perfect!

Again wow, many many thanks to the whole ORBX team, I'm flightsimming since the VIC20 days but I've never seen this kind of fast and helpful customer support ever!

Thanx again:)

 

[Ed Correia]

No worries, was quite easy to do with ADE, just a simple tick and compile.

[tttocs]

16 hours ago, Doogles said:

Scott

Ok, but a LOC/DME is not the same as an ILS/DME as the title of this post suggests.....also, why would we want to worry about a LOC/DME for runway 20R when there is an ILS?....and the VOR/DME 02L obviously uses the 117.6 while the localizer 108.9 could still be used as a reference for that approach

 

Doug, there are two elements to an ILS.  The localizer, in this case I-ENA, and the glideslope.  The antennas and transmitters for each are in two different places (one next to the runway near the touchdown zone, and the other at the end of the runway), but they work together as a system.  You actually tune the localizer frequency, and if there's an associated glideslope your radio knows what the paired frequency is to automatically tune the associated glidedlope.  On this approach there is also a DME co-located with the localizer, that's why it's listed as LOC/DME, but that doesn't mean the DME somehow isn't part of this ILS approach.  It and the associated localizer are integral to the ILS.

 

Again, as both the OP and I have suggested, look carefully at the approach plate and you'll see that DME fixes from I-ENA are an integral part of this ILS approach.  NO DME fixes are charted from ENA on the final approach course, so ENA CANNOT be used for that purpose.  To put it another way, you MUST be able to receive the DME co-located with ENA to fly the DME arc(s), and you MUST be able to fly the DME co-located with I-ENA during the final approach phase.  This is not "implied" on the chart, it is very, very (very, very very :-) specific.  In real life, if you can't receive the DME associated with the localizer you can't fly this approach. 

 

There is no ambiguity here.  None whatsoever.

 

Everything on an approach plate has very specific meaning as to how that given IAP must be flown, and any listed fix on a plate must be able to be received as charted.  To answer your question, no I have not flown into PAEN IRL, but I have flown many similar approaches and, more importantly, I know how to read an approach plate.  I don't mean that to be insulting in any way - it's just that your questions and speculation indicate that you do not.  In this specific case, were DME from I-ENA to be out for some reason, this ILS would be NOTAM-ed out of service.

 

As you say, all of the above is not meant to be argumentative, but is done in the spirit of sharing information and understanding.

 

Scott

 

PS - for any nitpickers out there, there is, of course, a way to fly this approach without any DME at all.  If you have an IFR approved GPS with an approved and up-to-date database which includes all fixes associated with this approach, it may be used in lieu of a DME to locate any DME-based fixes, but that's not really relevant to the discussion.  :-)

 

And finally, thanks to Ed for the "patch".  I know these kinds of things are supposed to be easy to deal with in ADE.  I guess one of these days I'll need to get it and learn to use it!

 

S.

 

 

[Doug Sawatzky]

14 hours ago, polarbear said:

@Doug 

Again, look at the profile view where it even says (although it's obvious):  Use I-ENA DME when on the localizer course

When there are DME distances mentioned on the chart you can't simply add and substract distances from other navaids as you like.

Last but not least LOC/DME is the same as ILS. It uses the same ILS antenna and the same DME.

You never use the LOC approach if the ILS is available, just if e.g. the GS is inop etc. and hence not available, you use the LOC approach.

I also don't understand why you question if there's an actual DME, because it's 'only' on a chart. 

There's already a lot of information on the chart. Why clutter it with even more redundant information? 

It would be a bad thing if the charts would be so bad that you have to fly there first to find out if the info is true!

Last but not least, as there is no official LOC BC approach for 02, you can't use the localizer as a reference for the VOR 02 approach.

 

So now, as it is confirmed as missing, my question:

 

Is it planned by the developers to add the missing DME in a patch? 

 

 

39 minutes ago, tttocs said:

 

Doug, there are two elements to an ILS.  The localizer, in this case I-ENA, and the glideslope.  The antennas and transmitters for each are in two different places (one next to the runway near the touchdown zone, and the other at the end of the runway), but they work together as a system.  You actually tune the localizer frequency, and if there's an associated glideslope your radio knows what the paired frequency is to automatically tune the associated glidedlope.  On this approach there is also a DME co-located with the localizer, that's why it's listed as LOC/DME, but that doesn't mean the DME somehow isn't part of this ILS approach.  It and the associated localizer are integral to the ILS.

 

Again, as both the OP and I have suggested, look carefully at the approach plate and you'll see that DME fixes from I-ENA are an integral part of this ILS approach.  NO DME fixes are charted from ENA on the final approach course, so ENA CANNOT be used for that purpose.  To put it another way, you MUST be able to receive the DME co-located with ENA to fly the DME arc(s), and you MUST be able to fly the DME co-located with I-ENA during the final approach phase.  This is not "implied" on the chart, it is very, very (very, very very :-) specific.  In real life, if you can't receive the DME associated with the localizer you can't fly this approach. 

 

There is no ambiguity here.  None whatsoever.

 

Everything on an approach plate has very specific meaning as to how that given IAP must be flown, and any listed fix on a plate must be able to be received as charted.  To answer your question, no I have not flown into PAEN IRL, but I have flown many similar approaches and, more importantly, I know how to read an approach plate.  I don't mean that to be insulting in any way - it's just that your questions and speculation indicate that you do not.  In this specific case, were DME from I-ENA to be out for some reason, this ILS would be NOTAM-ed out of service.

 

As you say, all of the above is not meant to be argumentative, but is done in the spirit of sharing information and understanding.

 

Scott

 

PS - for any nitpickers out there, there is, of course, a way to fly this approach without any DME at all.  If you have an IFR approved GPS with an approved and up-to-date database which includes all fixes associated with this approach, it may be used in lieu of a DME to locate any DME-based fixes, but that's not really relevant to the discussion.  :-)

 

And finally, thanks to Ed for the "patch".  I know these kinds of things are supposed to be easy to deal with in ADE.  I guess one of these days I'll need to get it and learn to use it!

 

S.

 

 

 

Guys

 

Thanks for the discussion, you guys are pretty serious and disciplined lol ....I am 100% aware of and agree with everything you have to say, and I am very glad to see you know how to read and use a chart, but seeing as this is just a hobby for fun, I trust that you will understand that I will continue to chose how I want to use the charts and the navaids and fly the approaches as I see fit....I am also very happy you have your fix!

 

Cheers 

 

Doug