Simnut Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Outerra has been given it's own forum section on Avsim in the last week or so as a result of the interest folks have been taking in the potential Outerra has, it's really not hard to see and I urge users over here to read through the few threads over there, especially the huge An interesting future for Outerra one that lead to the creation of the dedicated sub-forum and the Outerra Roadmap one started by the Outerra dev Cameni. You can download a free demo from their website and it really is worth a look from anyone interested in flight simulation. My question is for John and the devs here, is this something you have been aware of? I have no doubt you are, I hardly need to ask. More specifically, is this something you have been keeping your eye on an if so what are your opinions as things stand? I know I for one would like to see devs supporting this project even if only verbally as it has huge potential and it's reasonable to think that it could be the flight sim to beat all. I urge all to download the free tech demo to see for themselves. I'm in no way affiliated with Outerra, just hugely excited by what I see there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 The Outerra devs have contacted me a few times, we've played with their engine, but it does not really compare in scope and function to FSX/P3D so we did not progress it further. It's one thing to make some cool demo videos, but another entirely to compress 30 years of development and subsystems (FSX/P3D) into a few years of engine coding. They seem like a nice bunch of guys but they've made an engine that is looking for a purpose and FS is not it, sorry to say. Just because AVSIM makes a forum does not give it anymore credibility or chance of success, after all, they made an MS-Flight forum too! Despite all the moaning and groaning people do over FSX/P3D, show me anything out there that has: - Round world whole-earth model - Landclass based scenery - Efficient autogen engine - 70km+ horizon with millions of polys/triangles per frame - Great SDK and third party extensibility and community - Ongoing development team (LM) ... and the list goes on I've said it before but nothing comes close to the FSX/P3D engine (now P3D2.x really in all honesty), and trust me when I tell you I am a 3D engine enthusiast that looks closely at the industry all the time. Give LM a few more years to add DX11/DX12 systems, new physics, enhanced lighting, much more performance through leaner code, new animation systems and I can tell you nothing will touch it. Be very thankful with what we've got, it's the best out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simnut Posted September 4, 2014 Author Share Posted September 4, 2014 Thanks for the reply John, disappointing as it is to me at least. I see your eggs are firmly in the one basket which is cool, I have no doubt it's a bountiful basket. I personally think X-Plane is the best out there bar none at the moment but I do reinstall each iteration of P3d just to give it a fair shake and I understand you'll not agree with me, not trying to be fractious. My personal appraisal of the market hasn't made me a fortune so I will remain just an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Nobody makes money out of X-Plane except Austin, but his market is tiny. Look at the FSS sales charts, not an XP title within the top 100 let alone top ten. REX dabbled in XP9, they steer well clear of it now. And fundamentally I just don't like the look and feel of XP, it feels like a computer game more than a sim. And you are right, our eggs are firmly in the one basket where as a company we get a positive return on investment, and right now that is FSX/P3D and not a lot I have seen has convinced me to spend money on porting our IP to anything else. I do get contacted all the time from 3D engine vendors, only recently a CEO emailed me and showed me some YouTube demos and an expensive stand they had at some trade show; amazing visuals with grass reacting to rotorwash and lush trees, water etc. Only problem was their engine did not do whole round-earth, had an operating area of a few hundred miles which was a fraction of PNW and they could not convince me they wanted to put skin in the game to help us even port a test area. So yet another pretty engine which is looking for a consumer market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simnut Posted September 4, 2014 Author Share Posted September 4, 2014 I'm not trying to draw you out John, I was just stating my personal opinion, not looking for a my sim your sim thing though your "it feels like a computer game more than a sim" did give me a chuckle. I suppose the fact that I don't use the XP default scenery in favour of photographic with OSM autogen colors my thinking somewhat. I do understand that for you it's all about the money at the end of the day, mine is made so it's not a worry for me any more which is probably why I tend to think more about what would be good for the community (competition and variety) and less about my bottom line than you. In fairness it's a bit mean and presumptious in my opinion to say "They seem like a nice bunch of guys but they've made an engine that is looking for a purpose and FS is not it, sorry to say". FS may prove to be well suited to this engine in a few years or may not, time will tell. It wouldn't hurt to offer some supporting words but then again I might think differently if I was as invested as you are in the status quo so I really can't blame you in that regard for consistenly knocking the competition I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windquest Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 I have to agree with JV both as a computer software engineer and as a user of the product with a fair shake of common sense. Flight simming has been going on a long time and the improvements along the way, impressive. It just isn't realistic to think that a new engine will suddenly appear, bug free and up to date and compatable with everything we all want in the market....it takes time and LOTS of money. No doubt LM has the big bucks and appear to be using them. So far they are supporting the product well, and are making improvements often....something even microsoft didn't do in it's hay day! Now introduce a start up with great ideas. It is always possible to build a better mousetrap, but code is code and there is no short cut. And time is money, so the question is can they stay in business long enought to succeed. The smart money goes where there is the greatest return, and right now PD3 IS getting the support from third part developers which is needed for future success for all parties. Most companies are looking toward the future and were cautions even with LM...big bucks and all. That has changed in the past year and now even the most stoic are supporting P3D. And remember, the basis was already established, not an upstart. Bottom line, I wouldn't even consider it. Regards. Henry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simnut Posted September 4, 2014 Author Share Posted September 4, 2014 I have to agree with JV both as a computer software engineer and as a user of the product with a fair shake of common sense. Flight simming has been going on a long time and the improvements along the way, impressive. It just isn't realistic to think that a new engine will suddenly appear, bug free and up to date and compatable with everything we all want in the market....it takes time and LOTS of money. No doubt LM has the big bucks and appear to be using them. So far they are supporting the product well, and are making improvements often....something even microsoft didn't do in it's hay day! Now introduce a start up with great ideas. It is always possible to build a better mousetrap, but code is code and there is no short cut. And time is money, so the question is can they stay in business long enought to succeed. The smart money goes where there is the greatest return, and right now PD3 IS getting the support from third part developers which is needed for future success for all parties. Most companies are looking toward the future and were cautions even with LM...big bucks and all. That has changed in the past year and now even the most stoic are supporting P3D. And remember, the basis was already established, not an upstart. Bottom line, I wouldn't even consider it. Regards. Henry I understand and don't disagree much with either of you, I'm simply looking at potential with an open mind. I'm not wedded unconditionaly to any sim, I simply look for the best fit for me, my opinions are no more than opinions. P3d just doesn't get it done for me, I favour X-Plane. I don't expect my voice to sway anyone, this is after all the internet. The engine has been worked on since 2008 apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Let me give you a visual clue about Outerra: they have one single species of tree covering the entire planet over the top of procedurally generated bland terrain. That to me tells me that their basic terrain engine is an aftertought that needs serious R&D before they can provide a realistic global terrain engine that gives a sense of reality. Go back and review all their videos and your can see the landscape resembles a generic pseudo-world more akin to a fantasy roleplaying game than a simulator. Anyway, religious platform wars are boring. We have the right sim for what our customers want and it will take something special to sway me into exploring other platforms, enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simnut Posted September 4, 2014 Author Share Posted September 4, 2014 No John they have more trees than that and I never said it was a flight sim, I said it could be. They are looking in that direction. Enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticBeauty Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 They seem like a nice bunch of guys but they've made an engine that is looking for a purpose and FS is not it, sorry to say. I'm pretty sure that they're actually looking to make a flight simulator out of Outerra with their future Kickstarter campaign. Right now I understand why you wouldn't be interested in supporting Outerra, but I'm hoping you won't write it off completely because (especially lately) it's making some good progress, and in the future it might turn out something amazing, and in that case, I'm sure a lot more people would ask Orbx to support that platfrom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryl Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Xplane is the best out there bar none??? you must not have P3D V.23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simnut Posted September 4, 2014 Author Share Posted September 4, 2014 Xplane is the best out there bar none??? you must not have P3D V.23 I do. Each to their own. It depends a lot on the modifications I've made to it, default scenery is nothing to write home about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpreou Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 I don't want to speak for John, but my interpretation of his comments through this thread and many others is that the P3Dv2+ engine is where he sees the future based on current market demands and expectations, and ORBX will consider anything is the demand and future is there, and no other products or engines are there yet This is basically good business practice. I'm sure that if the next-gen simulator engine comes along and can provide the development scope that ORBX need, then they will consider it. I haven't read anything that suggests otherwise. Its just that right now that new engine isn't here and the ones that are don't appear to be the right fit. I have, over the years, seen many, many good videos but real-time rendered accurate dynamic real-world landscape, buildings, trees, seasons, lighting, objects, shadows, reflections, etc are just so much harder to bring to consumers at an acceptable level of performance and fidelity. Not even to mention flight modelling and dynamics. I have no doubt we'll get better and better; whether P3D or other I have no idea. But it will come Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Harris Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Save the sim-bashing for the 'other forums', you're getting straight honest answers from John here, dont waste it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simnut Posted September 5, 2014 Author Share Posted September 5, 2014 Save the sim-bashing for the 'other forums', you're getting straight honest answers from John here, dont waste it. Saying honestly that one sim or another is or is not my favouite hardly qualifies as sim-bashing. Maybe I'm wrong though. If I am then I think the line between speaking freely and sim-bashing is getting ever lower, along with the tolerance of those who would take it upon themselves to set the height of that particular bar. I have not spoken ill of any sim. I appreciate that I have had honest answers from John and have given honest replies as best I am able. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Alrighty then, everyone's had their say, time to move on, nothing to see here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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