Video card died. Need to select replacement. Nvidia GTx470 vs GTX285?

[alexf]

My 3 year old video board (nVidia 8800 GTX) is dying. Does not show two monitors now and no Direct3D support so I have a blurry very basic video with color artifacts and lines all over the place, since yesterday. I cleaned it up (vwas very dusty) and downloaded and installed the latest drivers I could find to no avail.

I am researching what to buy as I know little of the newer graphics technology. I have an Alienware Aurora 7500 (3-years old) with dual core and enough RAM for most apps.

The power supply (just checked) is 700 watts max, so I think I can run the new video cards. I discarded the Dual GTX295 as pricey, and think that two cards-in-one will double the heat and power signatures. Slot space is not a problem as all of these cards are 2-slots wide anyway.

The need is for FSX, gaming, and photography processing, mainly. I have a couple of good Dell monitors, the newer one being an excellent 2209WA, so there's no problem with quality there.

After reading the specs, I find a stumbling block. I can understand the power specs comparison side-by-side, more gigaflops, more onboard ram, faster processor, etc. What throws me, and worries me the most is if the card does not fit with my existing motherboard (no clue as to what I have).

This GeForce 400 Wikipedia page lists the GTX470 as needing a PCIe 2.0 x16 bus interface. The same for the GTX 285. The page for my existing 8800GTX says Bus Interface: PCI Express x16.

I've no idea if I can run a PCIe 2.0 x16. I called Alienware and they won't even talk to me over the phone as I am out of warranty and they want us$60 to open up a case. I am afraid I'll spend good money on a new card then not being able to use it.

Can anybody help? Which one of these two (or any other model) would be a good replacement for my old GeForce 8800GTX? UI am out of work right now so the new investment would be a stretch already but as of now I am text-only

Any help appreciated

Alex

[gheeD]

Download program "cpu-z", it tells your what cpu and motherboard u have. Then we can check if your motherboards support GTX400 series.

[alexf]

Thanks. Didn't know about the program. Downloaded and run. It only confirmed what I knew (AMD Athlon 64 X2 6000+ on an Alienware motherboard w/4Gb RAM DDR2). It reports graphics bus as PCI-Express x16, which I knew. The graphics tab is empty as it can't read the nVidia GeForce board which is not working properly as I mentioned above.

This still leaves my original question, if my system will support a PCIe 2.0 x16instead of PCI-Express x16 which I've no idea.

[gheeD]

Hmph, i was sure it would read the mobo right, after that we could check if that supports it. Maybe if you ask alienware does your mobo support pci-e 2.0?

[alexf]

Ah! Looked definition at Wikipedia and found this reassuring info:

"The PCIe 2.0 standard doubles the per-lane throughput from the PCIe 1.0 standard's 250 MB/s to 500 MB/s. This means a 32-lane PCI connector (x32) can support throughput up to 16 GB/s aggregate. The PCIe 2.0 standard uses a base clock speed of 5.0 GHz, while the first version operates at 2.5 GHz.

PCIe 2.0 motherboard slots are fully backward compatible with PCIe v1.x cards. PCIe 2.0 cards are also generally backward compatible with PCIe 1.x motherboards, using the available bandwidth of PCI Express 1.1. Overall, graphic cards or motherboards designed for v 2.0 will be able to work with the other being v 1.1 or v 1.0."

This means that it will not run at the full bus interface speed of the card but at the maximum my mobo can do. 

When in the future I can upgrade the system I could reuse the new card.

[Guest AS355F]

You will have no problem running a PCIe2 card in a PCIe1 slot full stop. Most (a lot) of SLI and Crossfire slots run 2nd, 3rd and 4th slots at 8 or even 4x. Bandwidth won't be a problem.

Personally I would get a 5870 they are much faster than a 470 and slightly slower than a 480 and a couple of hundred dollars cheaper.

They are also much much cooler and use far less power 300w+ TDP for Nvidia vs 180w TDP for ATi 5870. It's a no brainer imo.

And no you don't need an Nvidia card to run FSX properly a 5870 is just as good. It will be much better for GPGPU work too as it's theoretical FLOPS leave Nvidia floundering.

I know Nvidia rate the 480 at 250W TDP but it's outright lying, read the reviews, most have the cards at 300W+

Why FS people (the majority) think you must have an Nvidia card is beyond me...

I went from an 8800GTX to a 4870 and had no performance problems at all and the 5870 is twice as fast as a 4870.

The only thing you must to do with ATi cards is run the SM3.0 mod http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtopic=283701 otherwise they stutter in heavy cloud. That is bad coding in FSX not a problem with the card. Once that is installed you won't see a problem and you will never have a crash using UsePools=0 mod either due to the sheer number of stream processors. (1600)

The 5870 also comes with eyefinity as standard so you can run 3 monitors without the need for Matrox adapters and can even run 6 monitors with the more expensive eyefinity 6 model. Have you seen the video of xplane running on 24 monitors seamlessly?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzvfzJq3VTU&NR=1

Not that you'd do it with all the bezels but the capability is there. It's perfect if you have 2 or 3 monitors and a single card runs them easily.

The GTX is old hat now and is smoked by the newer cards, I wouldn't look twice at one.

[gheeD]

Reason FSX guru's recommend Nvidia for fsx is, the ATi drivers suck. They do have comparable hardware specs, but the way ATi software drivers are made is wrong for fsx, but the nvidia's are made different way, making them better. To make ati drivers better, it would require driver to build from zero, which i can't see AMD/ATi do anytime soon.

I can dig the post from Nick N, if you want. Also, after reading couple news articles, i would suggest waiting for GTX485 or whatever its called: it's like GTX480 should have been; less heat, more performance and less power consumption. No news on the release date tho, but should be august/september.

[TenBlade]

You´ve turned down the 295, but not for the most important reason, it´s actually SLI as it´s got two gpus, and that doesn´t work well in FSX. Just to make sure you don´t take it should you encounter a bargain.

I´m very happy with my GTX 285.

My advice: If you go for a full hardware upgrade later, then wait and see what card is on the market then. Don´t spend a fortune on the latest 400 series now. For all we know there´ll be a 500 series when you make your upgrade. And the 285 (1GB edition!) will not disappoint you.

I´m thinking on running 1½-2 years on my current rig now. Then see what processor and gpu is hot.

Regards

Bjorn

[alexf]

Thanks for all the info. I had already purchased a replacement right before reading Pete's message about the 5870. I went with the GTX280. A bit more pricey but 15% to 20% faster than the GTX 470 according to the specs. I don't plan on changing the PC right now and if this card lasts 2+ years I'll be happy. I ordered overnight so it should come tomorrow. Thanks all. Learned a lot.

[Sniper31]

I went with the GTX280. A bit more pricey but 15% to 20% faster than the GTX 470 according to the specs.

Um..this is backwards....a month ago I upgraded from a GTX280 to a GTX 470, and the GTX 470 BLOWS AWAY the GTX280. If you can, I would send the GTX280 back and get a GTX 470. It is not even a fair comparison. The GTX470 is in a whole, higher league than the GTX 280.

[alexf]

OOPS. I mean to type GTX 480 in comparison with the GTX 470!

You are correct! 

[Sniper31]

OOPS. I mean to type GTX 480 in comparison with the GTX 470!

You are correct! 

LOL...gotcha...that makes more sense.

[petehowell57]

Hi Sniper31.  I also have a GTX 280 at the moment and yes I have been impressed by all the remarks concerning the GTX 480, but its still too expensive for me to consider. I was interested to hear that your GTX 470 "Blows away" the 280. Could you spend a few mins explaining in reality what differences you have found in the way FSX has improved. To be honest I judge the state of play by looking at smoothness and how the sim plays on screen. I don't bother with frame rates or fancy benchmark figures

Best wishes

Pete

[TenBlade]

Hey Pete. SpiritFlyer did some comparing http://orbxsystems.com/forums//index.php?topic=23363.0,

Bjorn

[petehowell57]

Hello Bjorn.

yes I read that report and excellent it was too.  I suppose I was just looking for confirmation that the GTX 470 (or better still 480) really will make a significant difference over the GTX 280 before I start spending lots of cash again.  OR should I wait till the 485 comes out ? Oh dear decisions decisions!

Pete

[TenBlade]

Yes, there´s always a bigger fish to catch  , and it´ll never end...

Bjorn

[Sniper31]

Hi Sniper31.  I also have a GTX 280 at the moment and yes I have been impressed by all the remarks concerning the GTX 480, but its still too expensive for me to consider. I was interested to hear that your GTX 470 "Blows away" the 280. Could you spend a few mins explaining in reality what differences you have found in the way FSX has improved. To be honest I judge the state of play by looking at smoothness and how the sim plays on screen. I don't bother with frame rates or fancy benchmark figures

Best wishes

Pete

Hi Pete,

The big differences from the GTX 280 to the GTX 470 are major smoothness improvement, no stutters, the graphics look much sharper and the FPS are better.

[alexf]

Received the GTX 480. Unfortunately it has a different power connector which I did not know. This one has a 6-Pin and an 8-Pin connector, unlike my previous GTX 8800 which had two 6-Pins. The power supply provides 6-Pin only. Why do they do that?

Called PNY (the manufacturer) and was told there are 6-Pin to 8-Pin converters available, and it should be no problem. After a few phone calls I found nobody has them locally, so I had to order online. Now I have a nice expensive new board sitting pretty, waiting for a cable for a few days. GRRR!

[gheeD]

Ouch, thats bad. Im not sure if mine will work, i have six pin power connector that has extra 2 pins if needed. Hopefully that will work.

Reason must be that the fermis are more power hungry than any other GPU.

[Sniper31]

Another thing I LOVE about EVGA video cards...they always come with 6-Pin to 8-Pin converters (two of them infact).

[Guest AS355F]

Reason FSX guru's recommend Nvidia for fsx is, the ATi drivers suck. They do have comparable hardware specs, but the way ATi software drivers are made is wrong for fsx, but the nvidia's are made different way, making them better. To make ati drivers better, it would require driver to build from zero, which i can't see AMD/ATi do anytime soon.

I can dig the post from Nick N, if you want. Also, after reading couple news articles, i would suggest waiting for GTX485 or whatever its called: it's like GTX480 should have been; less heat, more performance and less power consumption. No news on the release date tho, but should be august/september.

Sorry but this ATi drivers suck rumour is pure bs, there have been test after tests proving that wrong. If you said FSX was badly coded you would be closer to the mark. Bojote has fixed this with the SM3.1 mod. Bojote also stated that after making the mod he is sorry he sold his 5870

If you can point me to hard evidence, then I will look at it but another post saying ati drivers suck is just passing on a rumour.

Ask yourself this, if ATI have bad drivers why do they have the fastest card on the planet?

Here is what Bojote said. Keep in mind he fixed the ATI slowdown with the SM3 mod.

If you want to pay $300 more for an equivalent card then go for it but saying the ATI has driver problems with no proof is misleading.

Ok, the conclusions now:

Will this card allow you to run BP=0 + ENBSeries, nHancer, MultiMonitor, High resolution and ALL sliders to the right? (except Bloom/Water 2.0 Max/Car traffic) the short answer:

YES!! it will however.. there is a catch. after 50 FPS, you'll see spikes, they don't crash the sim, they don't make it unstable, it will not stutter, but you'll get those spikes after 50 FPS., the ATI, not even at 100 FPS will show a single spike, so the increased shader processors in the ATI DO help in that case, particularly, with Autogen.

So.. who will most benefit from a GTX 480? someone who likes BP=0, flies COMPLEX aircraft, likes MAX sliders to the right, wants HIGH IQ but is ok flying with frames locked at 25/30 FPS.

If you are the kind of person who thinks that the sim looks more 'realistic' when running it at 60FPS, don't waste your money. Get the ATI. You'll get reduced FPS on complex areas with heavy weather and complex aircraft, but you can virtually fly artifact free when you go over 60 FPS.

Since I had the oportunity to test all, the GTX 285, the ATI 5870, and now this GTX 480 I can tell you that for my particular flying style (frames locked at 25) and FULL SLIDERS this card is absolute bliss. fantastic. Will it get better for FSX with new drivers? I don't think so.. I will get better on the next re-spin/revision (GTX 485) were it will have MORE shader processors (512) instead of 480.

so.. up to you to decide. I'll do some flying now

---

Jesus (Hey-sus)

[gheeD]

Yes, i have read that post and i have thought about it, and i fall to the GTX480, becouse i think FSX is smooth enough at 30 frames.

And the "fact" ATi has best graphics card in the world is right,HD5970, BUT Nvidia has best single core graphics card in the world, GTX480. Especially with the new forceware 257.xx driver, Nvidia GTX480 is 15-20% faster in games than HD5870, ATi/AMD's best single core graphics card. Also, the price is approx. 20% higher. So when you pay more, you get more.

And i do have the SM 3.0 mod installed, but haven't saw any improvement in smoothness, if there is in fps. Still laggy in clouds.

ALSO, you are right about that one, FSX coding sucks, ATi and Nvidia does their drivers in different ways, and FSX's bad coding works better on Nvidia's drivers.

[petehowell57]

Hi Sniper31.  Thanks for your reply (No 16).  Sounds as if the 470 is well worth looking at although common sense tells me to be patient and wait to see if the introduction of a GTX 485 will produce a reduction in the price of the 480.

Thanks

Pete