LBPN Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I didn't know MS had plans to implement cloud shadows in FSX (proof bellow) but it seems that in the end this feature was dumped, also I've read on some forum that FTX should have had cloud shadows because of some sort of collaboration between FTX and FEX. Of course that also, never made it to the sim. Still what does it take to enable cloud shadows in FSX? How about a collaboration between Orbx and REX? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J van E Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I think it's too complicated...? Don't forget that clouds in FSX are 2D, so flat: you can't simply 'enable' shadows for them. They'd have to rewrite the entire engine for it, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LBPN Posted May 12, 2009 Author Share Posted May 12, 2009 I think it's too complicated...? Don't forget that clouds in FSX are 2D, so flat: you can't simply 'enable' shadows for them. They'd have to rewrite the entire engine for it, I guess. Well I don't know what to say. But I guess FSX was made with cloud shadows in mind. Perhaps it's just a hidden feature, most probably dumped because of performance reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 But I guess FSX was made with cloud shadows in mind. Perhaps it's just a hidden feature, most probably dumped because of performance reasons. Correct. It can be done on today's hardware with the current DX10 libraries, but you need to remember they changed their DX10 coder guy three times during the FSX project and they just ran out of time - thus the 'DX10 Preview' tickbox instead of a proper implementation with the cloud shadows working. Essentially the cloud shadows are 2D polys overlaid over the terrain much like shadow polys, except they move in accordance to the sun's position in the sky and also the wind conditions. Trouble is, the FPS hit to animate all those polys in semi-overcast conditions killed FPS. Want to simulate it a bit? - turn on all shadow in FSX (aircraft, ground, buildings) and do an FPS test. Now disable all shadows, repeat. You''ll notice a significant performance hit with shadows on. Now multiply that FPS hit x50 and you understand why they removed it from the immature DX10 code. Can it be done by an Orbx or REX? Not without us tapping into the weather rendering internals, and that code is locked in a vault in Redmond somewhere. Can we fake it with pretend shadows not matched to sun position and the clouds? Probably, but not worth the R&D cost to try it. Clue: think of lots of AI traffic which are aircraft (made using of flat single polys with alpha shapes and semi-transparency) which fly at 0FT AGL and you'll get an idea of how it might be done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ White Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Thats a good idea John But it would look a little strange with shadows darkening the terrain but not the autogen/buildings etc. Or maybe it would'nt notice that much, dont know? would be nice to see a test though. Russ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LBPN Posted May 12, 2009 Author Share Posted May 12, 2009 Clue: think of lots of AI traffic which are aircraft (made using of flat single polys with alpha shapes and semi-transparency) which fly at 0FT AGL and you'll get an idea of how it might be done Hmm...Interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice_King Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Ah no what you do is make a texture that is basically a hardened layer that will not allow light through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 The fake approach using AI has its limitations, because how do you "drape" the shadows over hills and slopes? Buildings not being in shadow is another problem, yes - since the lighting engine won't discriminate. Essentially cloud shadows done within the FSX engine is virtually impossible because it would need access to the lighting engine source code. Ultimately, either some clever coder may hack it (look at the HDR dll, that's a marvel of overlay technology), or we'll see it hopefully added to FSnext, whatever form that takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice_King Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Well think about this to start with Aircraft can and do cast shadows on the ground and themselves. So the light engine does not have any issues, if you make essentially clear,hardened layer (creates a shadow), non crash, random shapes that are horizontally placed in the scenery that same as WX generated cloud is currently then you have moveing cloud shadows that would be believable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Well think about this to start with Aircraft can and do cast shadows on the ground and themselves. So the light engine does not have any issues, if you make essentially clear,hardened layer (creates a shadow), non crash, random shapes that are horizontally placed in the scenery that same as WX generated cloud is currently then you have moveing cloud shadows that would be believable. Now you're on the right track Mozza The trick is to get the invisible AI aircraft to fly at insanely slow speeds and very low altitude. Probably give them a flight model .air file from the ultralight. I have no clue about how you'd tweak the .air file to allow very slow speeds without stalling, but that's the essential concept. To toggle cloud shadows on/off, you'd simply turn aircraft shadows on/off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan2 Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Well some of my scenery seems dark enough already, although shadows will increase realism. The aicraft shadows appear to crisp and do not follow terrain undulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZ255 Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Orbx announces: Cloud Shadows $29.99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J van E Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Well think about this to start with Aircraft can and do cast shadows on the ground and themselves. So the light engine does not have any issues, if you make essentially clear,hardened layer (creates a shadow), non crash, random shapes that are horizontally placed in the scenery that same as WX generated cloud is currently then you have moveing cloud shadows that would be believable. Now you're on the right track Mozza The trick is to get the invisible AI aircraft to fly at insanely slow speeds and very low altitude. Probably give them a flight model .air file from the ultralight. I have no clue about how you'd tweak the .air file to allow very slow speeds without stalling, but that's the essential concept. To toggle cloud shadows on/off, you'd simply turn aircraft shadows on/off. Interesting indeed. But I think the hardest part will be the part that says 'placed in the scenery that same as WX generated cloud is '. Adding invisible aircraft that follow pre-programmed flightplans is one thing, but letting those 'cloudplanes' follow the clouds is another! Also, the amount of 'cloudplanes' will have to change with the weather. This all would mean you would have to use weatherdata to automatically create flightplans... Seems mighty complicated to me... I wouldn't mind cloudshadows that are a bit random and not too exact, though: the main reasons I'd like to see cloudshadows is because they in fact give you the illusion of sunlight in FSX: the contrast between areas with and without shadows will make things less er... dull (don't know the right word for it: I don't mean to say FTX is dull, of course! ). Right now FSX always seems clouded, even with a clear sky (although the bloom/HDR addon really helps in creating light in FSX!!!). So a cloudshadow-addon that would simply put moving shadows on the ground with presets like none, few, scattered, overcast and some sort of speedsetting, without really caring about the position and so on of the 'real' clouds, would be quite fine with me! I'd surely pay money for that! And since this doesn't need a link with the 'real' weather data, this might be a something that could be accomplished rather easily... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice_King Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 No you blokes are missing what I'm saying entirely!! Currently the clouds already build and decay and drift in the sim OK so if the code that allows that is bastardized or otherwise edited to allow a horizontal hardened layer to block the light and create the shadow on the ground, I have done this in a very basic form so attaching these to auto WX generated cloud should not be an insurmountable hurdle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ White Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 The trouble with that Mozza is to build a horrizontal hardened layer would require a lot of polys as the shape would have to be built with geometry due to the shadow effects in FSX not calculating shadows from alpha channels. Therefore you would quickly ramp up the scene poly count resulting in a big performance hit. Also object shadowing in FSX uses hard edge shadows, so all the cloud shadows would have razor sharp edges on the ground which would look worse than no shadows at all in my opinion. There would have to be a way found of making the shadow edges "soft" and i dont think that would be an easy or indeed possible task. Russ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan2 Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 It seems that this is slightly further on than hyperthetical . Just thinking aloud - if you're below the invisible horizontal plane you will see a shadow . If you are above it would the plane block the shadow view ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice_King Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 No because it is transparent to your vision but not to light , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan2 Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Sinc I dont know what Im talking about , I'll carry on . The effect of shadows is to change the colour of the ground . If there is a way to change ground colour that is not global may be a starting piont in a different direction. Switching defined areas on and off ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyhalf Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 You often saw in FS9 when the engine couldn't quite work out if it was day or dusk so it displayed a mix of day and some darker dusk tiles. Maybe something like this could be deployed? But the night lighting would start to show though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 We could quite easy create STATIC cloud shadows by switching alternative ground textures in and out, based on a cloud density menu (1/4, 2/4, 3/4 options for example). The clouds would mimic real soft edged cloud shadows perfectly but they would not move. You also would not get shadows on your aircraft flying under clouds. Downside - a horrendous penalty for storing alternate texture sets and also only being able to place shadows within a 1kmx1km square and within the borders of the FTX m-tile masks. Gets a bit tricky to be honest. Also, there would be no cloud shadows over water bodies or buildings. Lots of possible workaround solutions but none would be as authentic as shadows done properly within the FS engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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