Serge Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 G'day Guys, I have some questions regarding De-Icing (both in FSX and real world). I have recently purchased the RealAir Duke B60 and have been using it in FSE. I am currently under taking a ferry flight from Thailand to Australia. Current leg is 300nm and I'm at FL230, IAS 160kts (TAS 230kts) and OAT -17°C. The RealAir Duke B60 has the following De-Icing equipment: Windshield, Fuel Vent (L & R), Pitot (L & R), Propeller and Surface (I'm assuming wing leading edge?) In FSX with the parameters described above should I have any of this De-Icing equipment activated (not sure what's simulated)? When should I turn it on and off? What would typically be activated in the real world in such a scenario? Unfortunately Ice Protection isn't covered in the RealAir Duke B60 manual so any help with this topic would be grateful. Thanks, Serge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice_King Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Well as a general rule if you suspect icing then turn heating on especially if your ASI seems stuck then you can assume the Pitot is iced and turn on your deicing. Usually at that altitude you have very little moisture and it is usually on decent through layers of air that are more humid that problems will occur due to the low temperature of the surfaces involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serge Posted June 7, 2009 Author Share Posted June 7, 2009 Thanks for the response Mozz. Well you wouldn't believe it. On my next leg as I was climbing through FL170 I was in a bit a rain and the OAT around 0°C so I turn on the windshield heat, pitot heat and prop heat. As I was getting closer to FL180 my manifold pressure started to drop off. I hadn't turned on the fuel vent heat. Turned that on then the manifold pressure was restored to a normal operating level. Lesson learnt. Cheers, Serge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeeker Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 The rule of thumb I was taught is that anti-icing should be used when the OAT is less than 10degrees C, and you are flying in the presence of visible water (cloud etc). Flying at FL230 is still only theory for me at this stage of my career though, without strapping rockets to the Mooney. :'( , but I would have thought that it was quite possible to have decent amounts of water at 23000' when flying in the tropics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrajag Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 One of the traps we can fall into is only thinking of carby icing when flying through clouds. Serious icing on decent power can occur at over 30 celcius when relative humidity is only 40 percent. Here is a pretty graph: http://www.atsb.gov.au/pdfs/carb_icing.pdf Steven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice_King Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Never a truer word was said Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IW11 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Hmmm, sounds ok but it all depends on what the fsx aircraft makers model in each aircraft & what fsx emulates too. I think fsx does emulate icing of carby & airframe to some degree but wether it is sufficient is open to discussion. Some add on aircraft have de-icing switches that move but sometimes they are dummies. I can't recall any aircraft makers that make any fuss about the anti icing features, so the only way to find out what works is to set up the right weather & test it. Too bad fsx didn't show wing ice somehow (visible). If you establish what de-ice system(s) the Duke emulates (actually works) post it here as I would like to know too. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serge Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 Ian, On my last couple of flights with the Duke flying in conditions that must have been susceptible to icing I encountered the air speed indicator reducing to 0 kts (turning on the pitot heat switch fixed this) and as I mentioned above the manifold pressure reduced and I started losing power (turning on the left & right fuel vent heat switches fixed this). I'm not sure if surface icing is modelled or simulated so don't know if the propeller heat switch, surface switch or windshield heat switch do anything. Cheers, Serge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeeker Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Now I'm confused. The Duke is fuel injected. No carby = much less chance of induction icing (Whilst both carburettor and injected engines feature a butterfly valve, with the resulting temperature and pressure drop, only the carburettor engine has fuel evaporation adding to the cooling at this point). Wouldn't it be more likely for an aircraft like the Duke to experience impact icing (same as would affect the pitot) - causing ice accretion on the engine intake filter? The normal procedure for dealing with this in a fuel injected engine is to wait for an rpm drop and then select "alternate air" that bypasses a clogged filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrajag Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Yep sorry, fuel injected aircraft have an "alternate air" so the carburetor icing chart isn't applicable to those aircraft. The thread title was generic even though the message body specified the duke. ) Steven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serge Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 Apologies for the title confusion. Although I mention the Duke I was hoping to gather knowledge on the subject that I could transfer to other aircraft. I didn't think about differences such as engine type and the effect it would have on de-icing procedures. I'll need to investigate this "alternate air" system you speak of. By the way, thanks for the chart Steve. Cheers, Serge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_A Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 FS doesn't really understand fuel injected engines, so you'll still suffer from "carb ice" in cloud, even though the plane has no carbs (hmm, no carb diet?...). In that case, because there's no carb heat lever on the panel, you'll need to use Ctrl-H to clear it. That's true for all injected planes in FS, whether it's the Duke, Twin Com, Seneca, etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singletracker Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 The rule of thumb I was taught is that anti-icing should be used when the OAT is less than 10degrees C, and you are flying in the presence of visible water (cloud etc). Yeah that's correct Squeeker. Everything goes on once you hit the above conditions. For the Duke I'm pretty sure the surface de-icing mechanism was pneumatic boots (can't remember It's been so long)? rubber leading edge boots that inflate and deflate to crack the ice off. If that's the case you leave it off until ice has visibly formed then turn it on until it sheds the ice, then turn it off again and monitor the ice build up. Not sure if this works in FSX though so you probably just turn it on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IW11 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Maybe we should make this weeks FS project one of discovery re. icing & ice removal. Do some testing & post back here so we all can figure just to what extent MS & third party aircraft,or defaults, have emulated this feature. Not just the pitot tube because that is emulated. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virginpilot1 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 bit ignorant here, but just to clarify this includes jets...738 etc?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singletracker Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 bit ignorant here, but just to clarify this includes jets...738 etc?? Sort of depending on the engine type, But I'm yet to see one wildly different to this TAT +10 or less and warmer than -40 SAT with visable moisture, Engine Anti Ice ON The same Temperature Band but only if ice accumulation is suspected Wing Anti Ice ON Due to the design of the wing it is pretty hard to get Ice on the wings in flight unless you are in severe icing conditions which would be evident by ice building up on the windshield and wipers etc.. Visible moisture includes anything from Fog,cloud or rain to standing water on a runway. Regarding engine differences here is an example, the GE CF6 engines on the A330 requires Engine Anti Ice to be ON during descent regardless of SAT if the TAT is +10 or less, but not during climb or cruise. Most jets have the probe and windshield heat configured as always on when the engines are running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virginpilot1 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 awesom thanks for that singletracker xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singletracker Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Regarding the Duke, I checked, they did indeed have a booted leading edge de-icing system. I've got a cool story about icing up in a C402 with a Booted wing, when I get a bit of time i'll add it. Studing for a sim session at the moment \ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virginpilot1 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 awesom singletracker what airline you fly for?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Bosch Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Studing for a sim session at the moment \ I always thought flying for an airline would be fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singletracker Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 awesom singletracker what airline you fly for?? Qantas I always thought flying for an airline would be fun You have to pay the piper every three months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serge Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 Tim, Interesting comment regarding FSX not understanding fuel injected engines and still needing to use carb heat. Perhaps in the Duke the fuel vent heat switches are in fact carb heat switches in disguise? Does carb ice cause the manifold pressure to drop as I described in my earlier post? Cheers, Serge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice_King Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 On the subject of Icing it is currently Snowing in Berridale this morning @ 07:45. Depending on weather and road conditions I may be able to post some pictures later today. Forecast is for snow down to 600 Mtrs and I'm at 860 so it might be a bit whiter later today . ( Note to self go get a decent Web Cam for Mozz's Weather Station) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Bosch Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Currently Snowing in Berridale this morning. 07:45 The Brindabellas are covered in snow this morning. It makes a rather picturesque view off my front Verandah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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