Crosswind circuits & stepping up to the C172

[Extra260]

Hi All

After 6 weeks of not flying, it was time to get back into it today. I stopped flying out of concern at the condition of the C150's at the school. It's really just the age of the aircraft, and it always seemed that there was something wrong with them (seats, radios, cabin heat not working or stuck on!). There's only one flying school at YSCB, so with really no where else to go (without adding several hours of driving) I decided to try flying their C172's and see if they are any better. I picked up a copy of the POH earlier in the week, and spent last night studying it and reviewing the radio calls and procedures.

Today's instructor was Damien, a young grade 3 instructor who have flown with a couple of times before. The aircraft I had booked was VH-TAW, a Cessna 172N. Unfortunately the new CFI had sent someone out on an area solo with it before I got there, so I ended up having to wait 30 minutes. Damien went over the differences between the C150 and the C150, for example best glide speed is 65 vs 60kts, best rate of climb 73kts vs 65kts, differences in the electrical system etc.

When the plane did eventually turn up, we did the walk around, very similar again to the 150. The I spent a few minutes getting familiar with the cockpit. The panel layout is slightly different, something that did catch me out during the flight a few times. After 3 primes, I started up, took a few cranks before it would go.. not unusual for a warm engine. Avionics masters on, radios on, dialed up the ATIS and copied down, 290 deg at 12 knots, turbulence etc. With the weather deteriorating we decided on circuits rather than going to the training area. After going through the after start checklist (oil temp & pressure, vacuum ok etc)  , I called ground for our airways clearance.... no response. I also couldn't hear myself when transmitting. Tried again anyway, still no go. So Damien tried, sure enough it worked for him, but I couldn't hear him either whilst he was transmitting. Can't say I was too happy, this was exactly the sort of issues I had with the 150's. Anyway, we decided Damien would handle the radio.

Taxiing the 172 was quite different, especially in a crosswind, I think I got the hang of it by the time we eventually made it down to the runway... we still have the diversion onto Rwy30 at K and off at H to go around the construction work (extending the rpt apron). Just after we crossed Rw35 on our way down to holding point C I watched a Cirrus SR20 start it's take off roll on 30 and then abort... didn't hear why as we switched to tower freq about then. The radio in TAW is pretty old, doesn't have the standby freq toggle, it's dial as you go.

The first thing I noticed is that the 172 needs a lot more rudder input on take off and climb, and the back pressure needed to rotate is a bit more too. The 172 doesn't stay at 55kt's for long, and before I knew it we were climbing out at 75 kts with ease. After maintaining runway heading for a while, then and extended crosswind that almost took us to Parliament house while we sighted traffic, I turned downwind, and looked at the ASI... 105kts! Now the poor old 150's might get there on cruise on a good day the 172 does it with ease. Ok, now to think about the rest of the circuit. Power back to 2200rpm (where's the rpm's.. oh not in the same place as the 150!), dang, still doing 100kts. Landing checks done we call for base touch and go, had to pull the power back to idle to slow down to Vfe, 85kts for flap extension. After struggling a bit with the trim.. the trim wheel is a lot bigger and it take more work to set it as desired, I managed my worst ever landing, I miss judged the flare and then didn't use enough rudder to hold it straight in the crosswind (which by now was gusting all over the show). The landings did improve a bit after that, but I did find it quite a bit more difficult than the 150, especially in the crosswind. I think we did 7 circuits all up, including one glide approach (as usual, my best one) and one flapless where I ended up too fast and floated for quite a while... fortunately that was the last one and it made the taxi shorter

The rust had definitely set in, I really need to fly more often to keep the skills up.. at least until they become more set. I have two flights booked for next week, in the same plane.. but if the radio is not fixed by then I'll be refusing the aircraft. At $261 per hour I think it's fair to expect things to be in working order.

Vincent.

[John Bosch]

Good to see you are back in the air too mate! The C172 is quite a ifferent plane afer the C150, isn't it. I too had to double check dials or a while as things are n very difernt place (like the rpm gauge being at your low left, rather than in front of the instructor like it is in the C150). It seems like you had the same responses as I did, although I was in NAM - the 172 is heavier on the controls, doesn't react quite as fast and is a little trickier to trim (the wheel is a lot tighter).

It was TAW that Malcolm was grounding last weekend because the PPT button on the left side wasn't workng. I wonder if he did so in the end! Both TAW and NAM have the same radio set up I think. I prefer to set the secondary radio to ATIS and leave it there and just flick frequencies on COM1 between ground, tower and approach. That way I know I'm only transmitting on COM1 and the only time I flick COM2 on is for the ATIS outbound and in bound. Malcolm kept setting the next frequency on the radio not in use and flicking between the radios. Several times I had to take the time to sort out which radio was transmiting and on which we were listening ... it was very frustrating.

I think my next flight will be early the week after next and I think I'll shoot for NAM again if TAW's radio hasn't been seen too.

[Agrajag]

Yep, good to see both of you taking into the air again. ) If any of my aircraft had two radios I would agree with John, KISS (keep it simple stupid!).

As for the aircraft problems. They are old but I don't think that is an excuse. If they are so old that they cannot be properly maintained/repaired then they should not be in the air! Some may think of the issues as minor but to me, anything that may affect the conduct of a flight is not minor. Loss of or trouble with comms in CTA I don't think is minor. I know the issue for the older GA fleet owners is pretty bad because if they retire the old aircraft then training just got a whole lot more expensive. I just hope your experience with those aircraft isn't very common, not that that helps you guys!

It seems to be the season for us to try new aircraft, I didn't realise myself how different it could get until this afternoon. I had a fly of a Jabiru 160 today. the J160 is a high wing with a very different cockpit layout (stick and throttle hands are swapped around and many other things). It also experiences a lot of adverse yaw. I tell you what, it felt like my first lesson again! After about 6 circuits I was close to being able to land the thing but not quite! The throttle in the sportstar has two modes, course mode is used by pushing a button in the middle of the throttle then moving the throttle in and out like in the J160, Cessna and most other aircraft. The fine mode is accessed by turning the throttle, clockwise for more power, anticlockwise for less. Fine mode is fantastic for approach and small in flight corrections. Well, for the life of me I could not do fine corrections with the J160, cessna type throttle! That, nerves, different speeds, different circuit guidlines (not my usual airfield), different order/timing of checklist checks, and having to use my feet alot made life very difficult! )

I could feel I was getting better at it but getting used to a different aircraft can be pretty hard! The instructor reckons it will take about 6 hours to get used to it and now I believe him! To think that our licences means we are allowed to fly such a range of aircraft without familiarisation training, especially you guys when you get your ticket. Familiarisation training certainly should not be optional!

Steven.

[Extra260]

Good to see you are back in the air too mate! The C172 is quite a ifferent plane afer the C150, isn't it. I too had to double check dials or a while as things are n very difernt place (like the rpm gauge being at your low left, rather than in front of the instructor like it is in the C150). It seems like you had the same responses as I did, although I was in NAM - the 172 is heavier on the controls, doesn't react quite as fast and is a little trickier to trim (the wheel is a lot tighter).

Yeah, I found myself looking in the wrong place all the time.. I guess it will get better with more time. I think the biggest difference was the amount of rudder it needs, and how heavy the rudder feels. I don't think I quite had my seat right.. at one stage I handed over to Damien while I lowered the seat as I was hitting my legs with the yoke while dealing with the turbulence. The 172 also drifts a lot more in the crosswind.. I need to remember to hold crossed controls for longer.... wonder if I can practice that in FSX???

It was TAW that Malcolm was grounding last weekend because the PPT button on the left side wasn't workng. I wonder if he did so in the end! Both TAW and NAM have the same radio set up I think. I prefer to set the secondary radio to ATIS and leave it there and just flick frequencies on COM1 between ground, tower and approach. That way I know I'm only transmitting on COM1 and the only time I flick COM2 on is for the ATIS outbound and in bound. Malcolm kept setting the next frequency on the radio not in use and flicking between the radios. Several times I had to take the time to sort out which radio was transmiting and on which we were listening ... it was very frustrating.

I think my next flight will be early the week after next and I think I'll shoot for NAM again if TAW's radio hasn't been seen too.

I was quite p1ssed off to be honest... I have to say if there was an alternative school with more modern aircraft I'd be there tomorrow. And it wouldn't take much to upgrade TAW & NAM with some new radios.. seriously, take a look at some prices here : https://secure.sarasotaavionics.com/default.aspx - $10-12K to update the NAV/COM/Audio and suddenly you have what feels like a much more modern aircraft. The airframes and engines are ok, well in the 172's at least, just need to refresh the panels and make sure everything works. The old radios are hard to maintain, hard to find parts or even someone who can maintain them.

I'm booked for Tuesday and Thursday, hopefully by then the radio will be working!

Vincent.

[Extra260]

To think that our licences means we are allowed to fly such a range of aircraft without familiarisation training, especially you guys when you get your ticket. Familiarisation training certainly should not be optional!

Hi Steven

When you hire GA aircraft, they usually specify minimums and recency... minimum hours PIC, for aeroclubs and private hire that's usually around 200hrs, a for recency it's anywhere from 30-90 days. So if you rock up and want to hire an aircraft type you haven't flown before, you will need to do a check ride at least (with an instructor or the owner), some may require a few hours instruction for insurance purposes. You may also need a rating for the aircraft, for example CSU and Retracts require a rating. Only cowboys will attempt to fly an aircraft they've never flown before without some training.

Interesting about the Jabiru and adverse yaw, the C150s have almost none, the C172's quite a bit. That caught me out a few times yesterday, had to pay attention to the ball a lot more than I ever have, which makes me wonder if the C150/152's are actually a good idea for initial training. 

Vincent

Vincent.

[Agrajag]

To think that our licences means we are allowed to fly such a range of aircraft without familiarisation training, especially you guys when you get your ticket. Familiarisation training certainly should not be optional!

Hi Steven

When you hire GA aircraft, they usually specify minimums and recency... minimum hours PIC, for aeroclubs and private hire that's usually around 200hrs, a for recency it's anywhere from 30-90 days. So if you rock up and want to hire an aircraft type you haven't flown before, you will need to do a check ride at least (with an instructor or the owner), some may require a few hours instruction for insurance purposes. You may also need a rating for the aircraft, for example CSU and Retracts require a rating. Only cowboys will attempt to fly an aircraft they've never flown before without some training.

Interesting about the Jabiru and adverse yaw, the C150s have almost none, the C172's quite a bit. That caught me out a few times yesterday, had to pay attention to the ball a lot more than I ever have, which makes me wonder if the C150/152's are actually a good idea for initial training. 

Vincent.

G'day Vincent, yeah. Similar to us although I haven't had anyone want minimum PIC hours yet. They just want me to be checked out by an instructor. In my example, I am allowed to fly a tricycle undercarraige aircraft with MTOW of 560kg and traditional 3 axis controls. This gives me a very wide range of aircraft to choose from. Now, to fly one from a club or school I will require an instructors endorsement for that aircraft plus, at my old school, 3 takeoffs and landings every 30 days to remain current which is the schools rule above and beyond the legal minimum. That is simply a rule that they have with the only legal issue being for the insurance to be valid and their opinion on whats required to not bend the aircraft. It is not necessary if say, someone buys a second hand and only after a circuit or two tries to fly it home. I was told today that that happens regularly with people bending their new aircraft Crazy!

For training in low adverse yaw aircraft, it would probably depend on what you want to do and get out of it. If you want to be considered to be a 'good' pilot, then yes because good stick and rudders skils are seen as being a requirement. To just fly around recreationally it isn't if your aircraft doesn't require it. For an aviation career? No idea. )