Alternate Lo-Fi textures for YMML?

[Chris78]

Hello folks,

as I have nearly all ORBX products on my HD there is one idea that doesn't go out of my mind:

YMML is by far the biggest airport ORBX has released. I have never seen such an amount of detail in an airport scenery.

My problem is now, that although I tweaked each and everything, switched off as good as everything in the configuration panel for YMML, it is still a stuttering masterpiece.

I'm sure, you have heard reports like mine hundreds of times before and I know the amount of textures that need to be loaded is exorbitant. But please listen:

Some months ago I bought a quite good version of London Heathrow from another producer. Now this team knew what you have also said yet: That such an amount of graphical detail has it's price in fps. But they did one thing I'm missing using YMML:

They offered a low resolution version of their aiport, too. So during installation the user was allowed to decide, whether he wanted ultra crisp but - on his machine - stuttering eyecandy, or if he wanted a fluent approach experience.

The big advantage of all ORBX products until YMML was that there was as good as no impact on the fps. If your PC was fast enough for one ORBX product it was normally fast enough for all other products. With YMML that has significantly changed.

Now I don't ask you to reinvent the wheel, and I don't ask you to "make it faster" where there is no possibility to do so at that time.

What I ask you is to think of the possibility mentioned above (low res texture option) for an upcoming service pack for YMML.

As I could see until now, your customer support was always outstanding. I truly hope that you take this idea in consideration for future updates on YMML, especially as you have already announced further big airports like Perth or Sydney.

Thank you very much for reading this post and for all the effort you have already put into the AU Series.

[Penzoil3]

That machine shouldn't have a problem with YMML. How many processes do you have running?  I only have a Q6600, and it handles Ymml, on an ATI 4850, with 4gig of ram. Also XP, or vista?

  Sue

 

[Chris78]

Hi,

I've got about 70 Processes running (Vista 32), but I think that's not the point. IMHO the texture load plus World-of-AI-traffic seems to be too much.

An Optional set of textures with a lower resolution should help a lot. Simwings showed that with their Heahtrow release.

Thanks for your answer.

[Penzoil3]

Ah, but it is the point. You have so much eating up memory and processor time, nothing is left to run FSX. Try Alacrity PC. It will shut down the extra junk, and allow FSX to function properly.

  Sue

[JimNZ]

A very interesting post Chris, with a number of very interesting points. I look forward to the answers, from the dev's.

Jim.

[Jason]

I must say, it has never entered my mind, and while I don't have stuttering, I do understand your request, and in fact I'll sign up to the LO-FI option movement with you.

But its not always as simple as we think. I am sure there is a lot of work involved. but i agree its worth a thought.

[johnny]

I would be very much in favour of such a YMML "lite".

I think it's unreasonable to have to reduce other "additive effects" such as traffic (*) and weather to minimal to enjoy scenery - it defeats the purpose. In fact the AI traffic create the atmosphere. I have some of the most simplest payware airport scenery brought to life by AI (KDEM/FEDEX comes to mind). Sometimes I wonder whether I have to be content with going around an empty YMML on foot lol.

I wish it could be as simple as deleting a stack of designated textures. For example is it the airport pavement textures (**) taking up all the performance - because I personally think they are vague and uninteresting and only fit for viewing from altitude.

* Concerning WOAI, I have experimented a little, while it's not a major culprit (leave mine at 70%), especially with aircraft at the stands, have noticed you get around YMML a little easier when the big heavies are not around, so time dependent. The key anyway is to selected ramp parking pointing away from the terminal, usually when taxiing you don't have that many moving AI in view and can slightly adjust the view (look away to one side) to suit.

** Is is not possible to have left the tarmac textures to another add-on like REX, or am I not understanding the issues involved.

[Chris78]

Hello everybody,

I just checked YMML unchecking everything but the terminal in the configurator. Right now I have 20-25 fps on the runway and about 11 till 15 watching the terminals. At the location of the 88fps-shot my system showed me 53 fps, so perhaps this spot is quite good in fps. That means for me that the ground and terminal textures are the main culprits.

I think a set of them with a lower resolution might bring much more fps to the screen. And saying lower resolution doesen't mean blurry as one can see at Sinwing's Heathrow. (Sorry to talk about this scenery again - no evil thoughts). 

[jgutteri]

I have thought about asking for a lite version as well, as the majority of systems really can't enjoy YMML to the full.  I was recently considering upgrading my system to run it well, until I thought - hang on, everywhere runs perfectly and is acceptable, I'd only be upgrading the computer to see YMML run smoothly.  The thought of paying AU700+ just for an airport becomes a bit much...

[alan2]

We have YMML now. Hopefully in time we will all have affordable computers that can run this 100%

[a49002]

I think the concept of a lower texture resolution option for these new larger airports (rather than a lower options version) is an excellent idea, particularly for users such as myself with lower end systems. Sue also had a good input as there are many reasons why a system run a particular addon with lowish FPS (Frames per Second).

I obviously don't know, but I doubt Orbx will consider such an option for airports that have already been developed and released but perhaps it is something they may consider if enough interest is shown. As for waiting until PCs run YMML at 100%, well I seem to recall similar thoughts about FSX over 2 years ago, and that still hasn't happened for most.

Paul

[Chris78]

Hello folks,

I agree that the upcoming bigger airports will need another way to improve performance but disabling scenery.

Regarding YMML I think it's not that big deal for the dev-team to make a lo-fi texture set available for us end-users. The material is already there so it has just to be saved in a lower resolution or am I completely wrong with this?

As far as I'm concerned YMML would be the only "old" product in need of this tuning-method. All the other airports are running smoothly like the rest of the AU scenery. At least at my machine.

And as you said: I hope that the ORBX-team will listen to the needs of their customers.

One last thought: Some to many customers seem to experience an unpleasant framerate at YMML. Do you really think they will buy any major hub by ORBX until they have upgraded their hardware in one or two years? The best thing that ORBX could do is IMHO to provide those textures so users can say: "ORBX delivered an excellent airport which I'm running at lo-fi and I'm happy with it. And when I will upgrade my hardware one day I will be more happy because I can apply even more detail." In comparison to "Nice airport, perhaps I can fly it with acceptable fps in one or two years..." that sounds way better, doesn't it?

[Dukester]

This is a hard one but a great topic for us to ponder, lets hope ORBX aren't taken a back by it which I am sure there not.

tbh I bought YMML knowing that I probably could not run it with little to no detail but I accepted that knowing that it was a purchase for the future. You see I have decided to invest in FSX for the long term and happy to support ORBX & others even if it means I have to wait to see the full potential of some products until some point in time I upgrade my system. I guess by doing this means FSX will not tire as quickly for me.

However saying all that I wouldn't complain if a low-res option was made available.

Technically I think you would find that all texture files would have to be re-done in the lower res, it is not simply a case of just editing them and saving them as a low-res file as it just doesn't work well in most cases. I say this from experience in other sims. So if a total rebuild is required then commercially it might not be worth the developers time with only a little return.  However future products may be able to accommodate both high & low res options as the cost could be apportioned across the whole development budget.  But whom am I to say if it is possible I will leave that to the powers to be here.

Great topic all the same.

[Chris78]

Thanks, Flinty for the dev-insights. 

I didn't know that lo-fi-textures have to be redone from scratch.

Something more learned.

Just to make this clear: My intention in this topic wasn't and isn't to critizise the ORBX-team. They have created such a beautiful product, so why should I? My intention is to make the devteam think of lo-fi-textures. Not more and not less. Just not to be misunderstood. 

[Appliance]

Chris 78,

I realise you are being very fair and balanced in your comments ... however

In another thread I suggested that the DEFAULT YMML offered very poor frame rates. When ORBX worked their magic they added only marginally to the poor experience in frames whilst adding markedly to the level of detail and eyecandy that we so enjoy.

Therefore might I suggest that, in the interests of science, you uninstall ORBX and measure accurately around the default ... with and without weather and AI ... then after reinstalling YMML by ORBX remeasure as before. Please post your results here for all to see and with screenshots showing frames/position/viewpoint as proof. Perhaps the results will surprise.

[John Venema]

I built a lo-res texture pass back in August last year. Made zero difference to framerates. However the terminals lacked such definition it looked like a freeware product from FS2004.

Sorry to say, but the GPU RAM saturation is in the gmax polys, which you cannot lower in resolution (in fact, if your GPU runs out of memory, it does it for you by grabbing the next lowest MIP and showing the gmax polys as 30cm or 60cm - otherwise known as 'blurries').

The only other option - if you want native mode back, it's pretty simple to delete FTXAA_YMML (delete SP1), then reinstall RTM and use that version, which offers the native mode (AFCAD runways and aprons) solution.

[Chris78]

Hello,

I built a lo-res texture pass back in August last year. Made zero difference to framerates. However the terminals lacked such definition it looked like a freeware product from FS2004.

Sorry to say, but the GPU RAM saturation is in the gmax polys, which you cannot lower in resolution (in fact, if your GPU runs out of memory, it does it for you by grabbing the next lowest MIP and showing the gmax polys as 30cm or 60cm - otherwise known as 'blurries').

The only other option - if you want native mode back, it's pretty simple to delete FTXAA_YMML (delete SP1), then reinstall RTM and use that version, which offers the native mode (AFCAD runways and aprons) solution.

thanks for your statement on this, John. It's very much apreciated.

Well, as you have explained, it seems obvious that lo-res textures won't help speeding YMML up in a feelable way.

So I have three last questions on that. It would be nice you would answer them:

1.) Where can I get the old version of YMML without that ground poly? I shortly bought YMML and I think the SP1 was already implented in the download, right?

2.) Do you think adding another GeForce 285 with another 1024 MB RAM to my system would solve the texture-load-issue?

3.) As YMML isn't the biggest of Australia's airports: Do you think that on an avergae FSX-system like mine your upcoming YSSY will be useable?

Thank you very much in advance.

[randy]

Hello,

I built a lo-res texture pass back in August last year. Made zero difference to framerates. However the terminals lacked such definition it looked like a freeware product from FS2004.

Sorry to say, but the GPU RAM saturation is in the gmax polys, which you cannot lower in resolution (in fact, if your GPU runs out of memory, it does it for you by grabbing the next lowest MIP and showing the gmax polys as 30cm or 60cm - otherwise known as 'blurries').

The only other option - if you want native mode back, it's pretty simple to delete FTXAA_YMML (delete SP1), then reinstall RTM and use that version, which offers the native mode (AFCAD runways and aprons) solution.

thanks for your statement on this, John. It's very much apreciated.

Well, as you have explained, it seems obvious that lo-res textures won't help speeding YMML up in a feelable way.

So I have three last questions on that. It would be nice you would answer them:

1.) Where can I get the old version of YMML without that ground poly? I shortly bought YMML and I think the SP1 was already implented in the download, right?

2.) Do you think adding another GeForce 285 with another 1024 MB RAM to my system would solve the texture-load-issue?

3.) As YMML isn't the biggest of Australia's airports: Do you think that on an avergae FSX-system like mine your upcoming YSSY will be useable?

Thank you very much in advance.

Chris,

  I can tell you that adding another video card will do nothing for FSX...if anything it might slow it down some.....that is debateable but for sure adding one will not help you at all. I have an i7 920 and I do not care for the runway textures..gmax polys...or whatever they are called either. Before SP1 came out I could just uncheck the box for the runways....as anyone could. It gave me a little better performance and I liked them better. I do not have any blurries or stutters at YMML. This statement should by no means be construed as I don't like or am complaing about the product. I am not. It is just an observation. I have my old copy of YMML and can revert back to it but am not going to do so. I had to put that in here as I don't want someone coming on here flaming me for nothing. I like FTX so much it has caused me depression when I try to fly in the states. Once using FTX I just have no interest to look at the scenery I have at home here. There is just too many things in SP1 that I like.  My video card would saturate at YMML before SP1 so it told me what I already knew...my video card is the bottleneck of my system. I just wanted to let you know not to spend your money trying to run dual video cards. It just won't help.

                                                                                                                                        Regards     

[Martin Henare]

Hi guys,

by no means do i have a problem with what is being discussed here, just so you know

A few things to note about SP1

Many of the textures on the landside have already been reduced in resolution.

The ATC complex has been compressed from 4 texture sheets to 1, The same with the Maintenance are.

The approach lights have have a huge reduction in polys and texture use.

If you can to note the configuration panel effectively gives you s Lo-res product especially removal of the landside buildings, surrounding industrial buildings etc etc. Very few other scenery products extend beyond the airfield fence, most just stop. and then its default, so this would pretty much bring it back into line with the others.

Another aspect that YMML has is the Jetways, with over 20 individual designs it makes for not so resource friendly development process, by example YBBN has about 4, YPAD has 2.

Yes the ground system is heavy in textures but its very low in polys. Sythetic systems use very high polys and very low textures.

YBBN already has half the number of textures tha YMML, so we should be able to affer a much kinder scenery so a lite version may not be needed anyway.

[randy]

Hi guys,

by no means do i have a problem with what is being discussed here, just so you know

A few things to note about SP1

Many of the textures on the landside have already been reduced in resolution.

The ATC complex has been compressed from 4 texture sheets to 1, The same with the Maintenance are.

The approach lights have have a huge reduction in polys and texture use.

If you can to note the configuration panel effectively gives you s Lo-res product especially removal of the landside buildings, surrounding industrial buildings etc etc. Very few other scenery products extend beyond the airfield fence, most just stop. and then its default, so this would pretty much bring it back into line with the others.

Another aspect that YMML has is the Jetways, with over 20 individual designs it makes for not so resource friendly development process, by example YBBN has about 4, YPAD has 2.

Yes the ground system is heavy in textures but its very low in polys. Sythetic systems use very high polys and very low textures.

YBBN already has half the number of textures tha YMML, so we should be able to affer a much kinder scenery so a lite version may not be needed anyway.

Yes the jetways...and since I keep my traffic set at 56% or there abouts that causes me a hit in performance...but I love using ATC and taxiing out and getting hold short and so on. As I said I am not complaining...and I did not say...but will now...I have no clue about developing. In 1982 I had to learn machine language to pass a course for the missile system I was working on at the time. I hated it. The instructor was adamant that one had to know machine language to troubleshoot the processors...of course he was wrong...it was just his way. A bit is a bit is a bit. The only thing I ever wrote was a program that when we fired up the simulator and were doing tracking exercises on the scope I had a Pacman come out and eat all of the targets....the instructor went ape and that was my only and last writing. You all are more than welcome to continue the great work you do.

                                                                                                                          Regards