in a way - Sad discovery

[John Heaton]

I suppose - in the way of tilting at Windmills - is there any way possible/technically -that Orbx can- morally - negotiate within their partnership with Microsoft -

 

that some way - to allow those customers who have been using a PC - and want to move to X box - to transfer their purchases compatible with x box

-to their X Box - at either no cost - or a discounted cost on the sim marketplace ?

 

After waiting 2.5 years -I have at last been able to purchase  the X box series - and find that I have purchased some 71 items for the sim from Orbx  - I shudder to think of

the $$$cost of repurchase - to bring x box into shape

 

(not forgetting the 1000s of $$ wasted on P3D and XP - Yes - I know I had the pleasure !!)

[craigeaglefire]

we Xbox users call it a ‘sunk cost’…

[wain71]

I doubt this will happen, I read somewhere it was to do with MS and marketplace costs or something similar...

[caleb1]

8 hours ago, wain71 said:

I doubt this will happen, I read somewhere it was to do with MS and marketplace costs or something similar...

MS must take a pretty big chunk of the price if that's the case. 

[John Heaton]

3 hours ago, caleb1 said:

MS must take a pretty big chunk of the price if that's the case. 

that's for Orbx to accept - if it makes for a happy customer - IE unless Orbx solve the problem - then how many dual PC / X boxers will buy

from Orbx in the future - when the first buy is from Marketplace - and can be used on the PC in Sync.?

Edited May 4, 2023 by John Heaton

[craigeaglefire]

Hi John, @John Heaton

 

obviously, you would HAVE to buy your add on,

 

#1 - using MSFS Marketplace using Microsoft Store PC MSFS version (NOT Steam),

 

#2 - then it will also be available for Xbox,

 

or vice versa…

 

NOT Steam,

NOT Orbx Central or Direct

YES Windows Store MSFS or Xbox MSFS Marketplace

 

& Yes - I’ve just damned well HAD to PAY $TWICE for the same Orbx add on!
 

that’s, unfortunately, the best they can do for 2023 grade commerce

[Nick Cooper]

5 hours ago, John Heaton said:

how many dual PC / X boxers will buy from Orbx in the future - when the first buy is from Marketplace - and can be used on the PC in Sync.?

 

Hello John,
that's an easy one, none.
The Xbox is a completely closed system and therefore no one else's installer has access to it. 
For anyone who thinks that the responsibility for this lies with third-party developers, it does not.

[John York]

What's an Xbox?

[John Heaton]

23 hours ago, Nick Cooper said:

 

Hello John,
that's an easy one, none.
The Xbox is a completely closed system and therefore no one else's installer has access to it. 
For anyone who thinks that the responsibility for this lies with third-party developers, it does not.

Still tilting

 

During many years in senior management in industry - one learns a few things about Marketing - and this is the way that I always saw unsolvable problems.

1 - The customer - is NOT always Right - but he is THE customer

2 - Where there's a will - there's a way!!

 

Sooh - as it stands - should a person who has a PC and wants to move to better Technology e.g. spend $500 on an X Box as an alternative $2000

to an unperforming PC - due to the power loads placed on it- caused by the rapidly increasing sophistication of the principal software MSFS - in scenery

mods and Aircraft specs - moving from default - should he be a victim of the of either Orbx (et al) and Microsoft getting 2 bites of the cherry.?

 

a - Microsoft want to develop its massive investment in MSFS - through  - and in the future of its sim in X box  - which is running 2 years behind the      PC due to Covid Probs affecting the sale worldwide of the console

 

b -The success of the sim cannot be denied and is very much due to 3rd party developers such as Orbx - "repairing" the original default - awful - scenery and Aircraft in many areas over the last 2.5 years - and the growth in the PC version has been great - not to mention the contribution of freeware - by others

 

c - If Microsoft wants to make the x box more agreeable to make to the PC user - to Upgrade to an X Box - then Microsoft needs to re-examine its Marketing stance on duplication - re- buying - of software already purchased elsewhere from its 3rd party colleagues.

The X Box still has the crappy scenery - and will stay that way until someone at MS wakes up to the problem

 

e - Microsoft knows exactly what the customer has on his machines - because on startup  -MS synchronizes - both machines - and it shouldn't be too difficult to perform a check on what is installed in in the PC - purchased from Orbx eg - and not in the X Box. It knows it the other way around and installs it in the PC

 

f - if Orbx doesn't want to lose long term customers - then it should get together with - and use its good relations with - Microsoft and find a work around even if the installation is done by MS at a reduced cost

 

g - otherwise - it's been nice knowing you - I object to paying you twice for the same product - and all my future purchases will be in the Marketplace - where you will pay a commission

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by John Heaton

[Nick Cooper]

Hello John,
I understand an unwillingness to pay for the same product twice but I posted this cautionary topic
on 31st August 2020 and nothing has changed since then.
Perhaps, your message should be directed at Microsoft, rather than Orbx Direct, whose products are for a PC only,
because, as stated then and again now, the Xbox is a closed system?
Perhaps you can persuade them to give you XBox product licences because you bought them from a third-party developer.

 

[boetie]

Touche John. I feel your pain mate.

[John Heaton]

3 hours ago, Nick Cooper said:

Hello John,
I understand an unwillingness to pay for the same product twice but I posted this cautionary topic
on 31st August 2020 and nothing has changed since then.
Perhaps, your message should be directed at Microsoft, rather than Orbx Direct, whose products are for a PC only,
because, as stated then and again now, the Xbox is a closed system?
Perhaps you can persuade them to give you XBox product licences because you bought them from a third-party developer.

 

Hi NIck

Just a couple of points where I cannot agree with you - for once

 

A helluva lot has happened since August 20 - the quality of the sim in ALL aspects has gone thro' the roof and is continuing - I challenge anyone who

could say what would happen back then - and even a year later when X box version came out (without an X Box console for a year at least for the majority) - one large success has been the ability to install via the COMMUNITY Filing system - this can be duplicated in X Box by the experts

at least for payware 3rd party developed

 

So - 2.5 years- at least - to recognize a growing problem exacerbated by expanding of 3rd party sales in the DEAD year or so for x box.

 

Orbx products are for sale on Marketplace. I even contemplated buying Brisbane - Sydney - and Adelaide this Arvo - and in Aussie $$$

 

I realise a number of blokes on here - sneer at the thought of the X Box Console - but it is a great product - up to 8K/120h with the right screen and

will last longer than a $4000 PC - even with the new N Vidia 4090's

 

If @Roger Pettichord is reading this - there you go mate --- all yours for $500 - but you have to spend some of what you saved - by rebuying

all your Orbx - et al

Edited May 5, 2023 by John Heaton

[Rodger Pettichord]

2 hours ago, John Heaton said:

If @Roger Pettichord is reading this - there you go mate --- all yours for $500 -

Thanks for the tip, John. As an Orbx guy, I'm all for saving money but I have to stay with the PC. The last time I tried something new, I blew up a city block and was laughed at mightily by members of the younger generations.

[John Heaton]

On 5/3/2023 at 5:50 PM, John Heaton said:

I suppose - in the way of tilting at Windmills - is there any way possible/technically -that Orbx can- morally - negotiate within their partnership with Microsoft -

 

that some way - to allow those customers who have been using a PC - and want to move to X box - to transfer their purchases compatible with x box

-to their X Box - at either no cost - or a discounted cost on the sim marketplace ?

 

 

why do I find this screenshot from a  Hoddeson review of London City Airport - and is the reply shown from Orbx - "daylight at the end of the tunnel"  ??

[Gstove]

All you need is some kind of marketplace credits on pc and you automatically then get the content on Xbox, 

 

I’ve got a pc and Xbox and only buy from marketplace as any purchases are shared. Yes you wait longer for releases and updates but. . .

 

Markeptplace is much better than when the game first came out there’s an intention to have a free section also once the backlog is dealt with. 

[freddy]

My two cents and personal experience ...

 

It is quite frustrating to purchase a lot of add-ons etc to improve your simulator, only to have to re-purchase those same add-ons again at a later date.

 

When my FSX PC died, I purchased a brand new PC and the latest P3D (v4.5 at the time).  I had to re-purchase a lot of my existing add-ons as many were FSX only and not compatible with P3D.  So I had to purchase P3D versions.  To be fair, many were compatible, and that was great ... but, sadly, those that were not compatible were generally the more expensive ones.  So, with the new PC purchase, and many already-owned FSX add-ons having to be re-purchased again for P3D versions, I ended up spending quite a large sum of money to get my sim back to the same as it was when I ran FSX (ie, it was now P3D with all the same add-ons that I had in FSX).  I had mixed emotions about this ... as it didn't seem fair that I had to re-purchase a lot of stuff that I had already purchased before ... but that was how it had to be ... at least I had the latest version of the sim, and, once again, all the add-ons that I knew and loved.

 

Then, literally about four months after finally getting everything installed, tweaked, tested and updated with the latest hotfixes and all my add-ons installed and working (both compatible ones and re-purchased ones) ... P3Dv5 was released.  That was frustrating.  I had just got P3Dv4.5 up and running and I was damned if I was now going to purchase this new version (ie, spend even more money) and go through the whole install, tweak and test mucking around again.  Worse, I note that some of my P3Dv4.5 add-ons were not going to be compatible with P3Dv5 and I would need to wait for developers to update their products accordingly, or, in some cases, re-purchase again!  Nope, bah-humbug that all that.

 

And, not too long after all of that, MSFS was announced.  Sheesh.

To this day I am still happily running P3Dv4.5 with all my add-ons.  I am currently a happy camper.  But, there is a part of me that wishes I had unlimited funds, and the latest of the latest.

I think of it all like this ... if you have a PPL and fly for real, then it is an expensive thing to do.  If you have a VPPL (Virtual PPL) and you fly at home on a screen, then it is still also an expensive thing to do. 🙂  I do agree that it doesn't seem fair to have to re-purchase a lot of things that you have already purchased before, but, just like flying in the real-world is expensive, the virtual flying is also an expensive thing to do too. It's not necessarily a good justification, but it is a justification nonetheless.

[Rodger Pettichord]

I've come to agree with my wife, whose advice was to stop trying to keep up with every new thing and enjoy the system you've always enjoyed (P3D4). Turned out to be great guidance. I have a full complement of excellent Orbx scenery, a library of all the special payware planes I want, and an extensive freeware collection of hard-to-find aircraft. My system is stable -- the bugs have long ago been worked out. Just saying.

[Gstove]

1 hour ago, Rodger Pettichord said:

I've come to agree with my wife, whose advice was to stop trying to keep up with every new thing and enjoy the system you've always enjoyed (P3D4). Turned out to be great guidance. I have a full complement of excellent Orbx scenery, a library of all the special payware planes I want, and an extensive freeware collection of hard-to-find aircraft. My system is stable -- the bugs have long ago been worked out. Just saying.

But you’re flying on an old game now and all the new developments and innovation are going to be on FS2020 for the foreseeable. For me FS2020 isn’t just about wanting to keep up with the new thing. The experience of using it, especially in multiplayer and group flights is just far superior. 
 

Best guidance I saw regarding wives and flightsim (or any purchasing) is it’s better to ask for forgiveness than beg for permission! 
 

That sage advice didn’t come from my wife though. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Gstove

[Nick Cooper]

5 hours ago, freddy said:

  I do agree that it doesn't seem fair to have to re-purchase a lot of things that you have already purchased before.

 

Hello,
perhaps, if you relate it to the real world, it might seem to be less unfair.

If you have a diesel vehicle and you wish to change to petrol, because you have read about particulates,
it is most unlikely that an approach to your local dealership seeking a cost-free exchange would be successful.
A low-cost exchange would be far more likely but realistically, buying a whole new vehicle should be expected.
Let us assume that you also have your own fuel pump and a diesel storage tank.
Good luck in finding a contractor who will supply you with an underground petrol storage tank and exchange your diesel for petrol free of charge.

 

Strangely, in the world of flight simulation payware, there is an expectation that whatever the customer chooses to do, the developer should spend
time and effort to update or indeed redevelop their products at no cost, so that the customer can then use them in their new chosen simulator.

[freddy]

57 minutes ago, Nick Cooper said:

 

Hello,
perhaps, if you relate it to the real world, it might seem to be less unfair.

If you have a diesel vehicle and you wish to change to petrol, because you have read about particulates,
it is most unlikely that an approach to your local dealership seeking a cost-free exchange would be successful.
A low-cost exchange would be far more likely but realistically, buying a whole new vehicle should be expected.
Let us assume that you also have your own fuel pump and a diesel storage tank.
Good luck in finding a contractor who will supply you with an underground petrol storage tank and exchange your diesel for petrol free of charge.

 

Strangely, in the world of flight simulation payware, there is an expectation that whatever the customer chooses to do, the developer should spend
time and effort to update or indeed redevelop their products at no cost, so that the customer can then use them in their new chosen simulator.

 

 

Changing diesel for petrol would be a change that is obvious to the customer and the customer would certainly notice there has been change, including new features that would come with that change (a different method to start it, for example).  The customer would also acknowledge that hard work had been done to make that change.  So, most likely, the customer would not mind paying for that.

 

A problem arrises where there is a "perception" by the customer that nothing has changed.  When that occurs it is easy to understand why the customer feels the need to question having to pay.  If one has a Boeing 737 from a well-known vendor, and they need to (re)purchase that exact same Boeing 737 from that same well-known vendor ... and, the feature list for that product shows the exact same features with nothing new ... then the customer can get the impression that there really hasn't been that much of a change, if any at all ... maybe it's merely just a new installer that puts files in the new, correct paths.  In that case it is easy to see why the customer would question having to pay.  If the vendor subsequently makes it clear to the customer just how much work has gone in to making the product work on the new/different platform and the customer thus gains an understanding of the time and effort that's gone in to it, then the customer is likely to be happy to pay.  Some vendors in our hobby are good at this kind of communication, and other vendors are not.

[wain71]

I fly Xbox version mostly default except a few planes.. not switching totally so won't be rebuying the same things again...

[Nick Cooper]

11 hours ago, freddy said:

A problem arrises where there is a "perception" by the customer that nothing has changed. 

 

I think that you have missed my point.

It is the customer who chooses to move from one simulator to the other.
By definition, the customer must "notice there has been change", as they have themselves made that change.

 

If an aircraft model, for example, is of a Boeing 737 in simulator A and it looks good and works well, then the same
Boeing 737 model cannot really look different, or behave in a different way, even though its developers may have
had to spend hundreds of hours redesigning it from the ground up, to make it work in the new simulator B.
Ideally, in this case, there should indeed be a "'perception' by the customer that nothing has changed".

The expectation among some customers, such as yourself, it appears, is that as the customer has changed their preferred simulator,
the developers have a duty to update or redevelop that product to accommodate the customer's new simulator and to do so for nothing.

Very few payware developers, if any, have released versions of their existing products free of charge between simulator types.
P3D users, however, have seen from Orbx, well over five free updates to accommodate the P3D versions and sub-versions.

 

There is no machine where you simply feed an airport or aircraft into one end and a new version emerges from the other.

However, from what you have written here, it would seem that you think that there is.

 

[freddy]

5 hours ago, Nick Cooper said:

I think that you have missed my point.

 

Actually, no, I agree with what you have been saying.  I am just finding it difficult to explain my thoughts.

 

I have always been happy to pay for work done by developers.  It is when developers do not do any additonal work (because the existing product will already work perfectly fine on the new platform) and merely recompile that existing work in to a new wrapper (new installer) and then flog it to unsuspecting consumers at a price ... that is what I don't agree with.

 

I actually work in the software business and the company I work for is constantly having to re-work our stuff to be compatible with the latest Windows version, or Android version or whatever.  Often, our front ends look and feel the same.  And, often, our customers question us as to why we are charging a small fee for what they see as the same product.  So I (we) deal with this exact issue, quite often.  In rare cases where a product does work fine in the new platform, then we create a new installer, with the new platform name in it, upload it for our customers to get it, and we move on ... little or no charge to the customer.  The key is good communication.  If the customer is kept in the loop, and understands the time and effort involved, then they are happy to pay the charge / small fee.

 

 

5 hours ago, Nick Cooper said:

It is the customer who chooses to move from one simulator to the other. By definition, the customer must "notice there has been change", as they have themselves made that change.

 

Agree.

 

5 hours ago, Nick Cooper said:

If an aircraft model, for example, is of a Boeing 737 in simulator A and it looks good and works well, then the same Boeing 737 model cannot really look different, or behave in a different way, even though its developers may have had to spend hundreds of hours redesigning it from the ground up, to make it work in the new simulator B. Ideally, in this case, there should indeed be a "'perception' by the customer that nothing has changed".

 

Agree. The customer should not perceive or notice any change to the product's functionality and features. However, in this case the company should make it clear to the customer that a lot of work has been done to provide them with the product they already know and love and make that product work on the new platform. Ideally, that communication should happen whilst the work is being carried out.  "We are working on updating our product to be compatible with the new platform".  "Work continues on updating the product to be compatible with the new platform".  "We have encountered some unforeseen issues during the update process which we are working through".  Periodic communications, at different periodic stages or milestones in the process, keep the customer in the loop ... and, in turn, the customer can appreciate the time and effort involved.

 

 

5 hours ago, Nick Cooper said:

The expectation among some customers, such as yourself, it appears, is that as the customer has changed their preferred simulator, the developers have a duty to update or redevelop that product to accommodate the customer's new simulator and to do so for nothing.

 

No, I don't have that expectation.  As I mentioned above, I have always been happy to pay for work done by developers.  But, yes, I agree there are some customers out there who expect this.

 

 

5 hours ago, Nick Cooper said:

Very few payware developers, if any, have released versions of their existing products free of charge between simulator types. P3D users, however, have seen from Orbx, well over five free updates to accommodate the P3D versions and sub-versions.

 

True.

 

5 hours ago, Nick Cooper said:

There is no machine where you simply feed an airport or aircraft into one end and a new version emerges from the other.

 

True.

 

5 hours ago, Nick Cooper said:

However, from what you have written here, it would seem that you think that there is.

 

No, not true of me.  I know first hand the work involved in having to update and port things over to new platforms. For example, I myself do a lot of AFCAD work and I did find myself having to do updates and modifications to all of my personal FSX AFCAD files to make them work for me in P3D. At the time I had some 100+ personal AFCAD files which needed modifying.  Hours/days of work, regardless of how trivial the changes needed to be for each individual file.  So I do very much appreciate that there is no machine where you simply feed an airport or aircraft into one end and a new version emerges from the other.  And, as I said earlier, I work in the software business and see and deal with this exact kind of thing very often.

 

Nick, I actually think you and I are on the same page.  Reading your post here, you have made points that I myself would have made.  There may be some customers out there who change their sim and then expect to get updates for free ... but I believe there are more customers out there who are certainly willing to pay (myself included) once they can "see" that a lot of work has gone in to making a product compatible with the new platform ... even if that product looks and feels the same, with no feature changes.  On the other hand, if the customer suspects that no work was required on the product and all that has been done was to recompile a new installer, then the customer (including me) will and should question the need to pay for that if the expected price is "full price" as opposed to a smaller "upgrade amount".

 

Getting back to the original post that sparked this conversation, a change from PC platform to X-Box platform ... I personally can appreciate the different code-base and the work done/needed for each platform.  So, yes, the product(s) on each different platform should certainly be paid for.  Whether or not the payment is "full price" or an "upgrade amount" based on previous proof of ownership ... well ... that is what started this discussion in the first place.

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by freddy

[craigeaglefire]

the issue is that there are different business Marketplaces,

 

the Microsoft MSFS PC/Xbox Marketplace,

the Steam Marketplace,

& the 3rd party Marketplaces - like Orbx Central…

 

they are separate entities…

[Nick Cooper]

On 5/26/2023 at 12:47 AM, freddy said:

So, yes, the product(s) on each different platform should certainly be paid for.  Whether or not the payment is "full price" or an "upgrade amount" based on previous proof of ownership ... well ... that is what started this discussion in the first place.

 

Thanks for your comprehensive reply.
In fact, John was asking for his Orbx Direct purchases to be made valid to a whole new device, the Xbox.
About charging for updates, while I have been with Orbx, which is for quite a while now, they have only
charged when the airport was redeveloped from the ground up and I think that in all of the few cases, that

was done to reflect major changes at the real life airport.
In each case, there has been a new price for new purchases and an update price for existing licence holders.

 

Like this:

 

Quote

Existing FlightSim Store customers who own any previous version of YMML in their account can purchase Version 3 for $9.99 AUD. Hurry as this offer is only available for 30 days.

 

 

Quote

Customers with Brisbane Airport v1 in their OrbxDirect account will be able to take advantage of a 50% discount when purchasing Brisbane Airport v2 for Prepar3D v4 and v5.

 

and of course, this:

 

Quote

Customers with EGLC v1 in their OrbxDirect account can upgrade with a 72.88% discount when purchasing EGLC v2 for Microsoft Flight Simulator.

 

[freddy]

2 hours ago, Nick Cooper said:

Thanks for your comprehensive reply.
In fact, John was asking for his Orbx Direct purchases to be made valid to a whole new device, the Xbox.
About charging for updates, while been with Orbx, which is for quite a while now, they have only
charged when the airport was redeveloped from the ground up and I think that in all of the few cases, that

was done to reflect major changes at the real life airport.
In each case, there has been a new price for new purchases and an update price for existing licence holders.

 

Yep.  Other companies may do it similarly, or differently.  But, I believe the approach above is the correct approach.  And the chosen price should reflect the work involved to bring the product to release. 👍

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by freddy

[John Heaton]

I know that Avsim is a rival Forum - but I felt somewhat vindicated with my spruking X Box all the time and in this thread

but this gave me heart that I am not alone in my thinking

 

PMDG 737 and Just Flight 146 released on XBox - Microsoft Flight Simulator (2020) - The AVSIM Community

[Rodger Pettichord]

What a classy discussion this has been -- opinions courteously stated, the other guy respected, no name calling or questioning of motives. Makes me remember why I love the Orbx Forums. Thanks to all for being gentlemen!

[John Heaton]

 

16 hours ago, Rodger Pettichord said:

What a classy discussion this has been -- opinions courteously stated, the other guy respected, no name calling or questioning of motives. Makes me remember why I love the Orbx Forums. Thanks to all for being gentlemen!

definition of a fine dinner party with friends

[John Heaton]

Since I started this thread - maybe - if anybody is left reading it - they might be interested in my personal conclusions

strange as it may seem - I do not disagree that further work for any developer needs paying for - only if it is necessary to

work in a differing technical environment - but I think I can avoid paying for something twice - by adopting thr following logical

solution

 

Firstly - as most of you Know - I live in Australia - which is very much a part of Oceania and S.E Asia and an area much travelled in

by myself and very familiar with me - as well as the UK  - from which I originated - for the first 34 years of my life - i.e -geographical

appreciation. autrali being where I got my PPL 5o years ago - used also in Hire aircraft on UK visits

 

My extensive Orbx and a few other developer purchases are 95% - from these 2 areas - and are in my 50" PC - HD/TV quality which gives me

MSFS Ultra and around 60fps

 

My X box Series X gives me 4K HDR10 on my 50" 4k TV set - but only contains default MSFS up to the full premium quality and includes a few

additional aircraft and airports bought in the Marketplace - and useable on both PC and X box

 

So - my logical conclusion to this question of duplication of costs of purchases for the same scenery - is the following split for the future purchases

 

For the PC - Orbx - et al - for a minimum scenery that I do not possess for Oceania - SE Asia -  and  UK - plus a raft of freeware available for all these

areas and fly whatever aircraft is in my Hangars - in HD

 

For the X Box set up - since only scenery - or additional aircraft - can be purchased via the marketplace - at the moment - that's where all my purchases 

will be made - Dual x box Pc designed Orbx - et al - and all my flying will be the rest of the Worldwide Oppurtunites offered in 4K. 

 

I have already started this by extending into Europe in X box already - and because my chosen aircraft eg H jet - Longtitude and 787 have been hugely upgraded - using the UK as the starting point for all points east to the Middle East and Europe

Edited May 30, 2023 by John Heaton

[wain71]

yeah I agree with Rodger, the debate is good...

 

now whilst I do understand that the airports etc I have bought are / were bought for my PC and some work has been done (maybe in some cases) to get these items to work on the Xbox they are not wholly different items, if they were then I would not be able to buy things in Marketplace (xbox) that are then available on PC, I have this with Carenado aircraft as an example.....so my simple question is this - YBBN, available on Orbx Direct and is I think made in house, also I think on Marketplace Xbox? If so, can I buy this on Marketplace Xbox, install it and then it's also available on my PC via Central?

 

Are you saying that anything on Orbx Direct and Marketplace Xbox SHOULD be bought on Marketplace Xbox therefore meaning I can use it on Xbox and PC? If so then going forward I may consider that way of purchasing for MSFS but will not buy for a 2nd time unless there is an obvious upgrade, like how we recently had on London City Airport...I don't have a money tree in the garden, I assume though Orbx will get their payment whichever way I buy so they won't lose out....

 

The one thing that saddens me about this debate we have had here is that this has all been left to Nick yet again, much like XP12 and no official word from the developer(s), this though is a sign of the times and seems to be happening everywhere...

 

Not a rant just want to be clear of my options going forward as the Xbox looks very nice on my new TV...

Edited May 30, 2023 by wain71
clarification

[Nick Cooper]

Hello Wayne,

as things stand, the Microsoft in-game Marketplace is the only place where you can buy Orbx products to use on an Xbox.
It is the same for every other "third-party" developer.

If you have bought products at the Marketplace, then most of them, but not all, can be installed onto an Xbox, as well as onto a PC.
If you have bought products directly from a third-party developer, then they cannot be installed onto an Xbox at all.

 

If you decide that you want to use your MSFS on a PC and an Xbox, then you will indeed need to buy all of your addon products,
by Orbx or any other third-party developer, from the in-game Marketplace.
This is regardless of whether you have already bought them elsewhere.
As I understand it, though I have no direct experience of this, you will also need to be careful, even at the Marketplace, to make sure

that the chosen product is also compatible with an Xbox.

It should not be hard to see that this policy is not imposed by the third-party developers and cannot be modified or undone by them either.

 

 

 

 

[freddy]

I don't want to seed this discussion any more than has already been done.  Nor do I want to take it in another direction.  But I have just discovered the following and it provides an interesting scenario along the lines of this discussion ...

 

One of the aircraft in my P3Dv4 hangar is the Majestic Dash 8 Pro Edition. In November 2021, a new Edition of this aircraft was released (Training Edition).  At the time, Majestic announced that customers who already owned a Pro Edition of the Q400 could receive a special discount price for the upgrade from the vendor from which they had made their original purchase.  I was happy with the Pro Edition and did not want to purchase the Training Edition at that time.

 

Present day, a new patch has been released for the aircraft and it occured to me that it might be a good time to "bite the bullet" and purchase the Training Edition. This would give me the latest patch included, as well as other new features that I did not currently have in my Pro Edition (for example, TFDi Design TrueGlass which provides precipitation visuals on cockpit windows).  So it seems like a good time to "go for it".  But, this is where the plot thickens ...

 

I had purchased my Dash 8 Pro Edition from PC Aviator.  I note that PC Aviator is one of the vendors offering an upgrade price for the Training Edition.  Good.  And, happy days, it looks like the upgrade offer is still avaiable for existing owners of the Pro Edition.  Excellent!  HOWEVER, my purchase was from PC Aviator Australia, which has since closed it's doors. And, as I did not purchase my Dash 8 from PC Aviator USA, they will have no record of my Dash 8 Pro Edition purchase.  Therefore, despite being a legal and registered owner of the Dash 8 Pro Edition, and an upgrade price is available to go from the Pro Editon to the Training Edition, I will not be able to receive that upgrade price, even though I purchased it from "PC Aviator" and "PC Aviator" is offering the upgrade deal.  It seems I will instead have to pay the full price for the Training Edition.

 

OK, so, whilst I do understand this from PC Aviator USA's position (they do not have my original purchase money), it kind of seems "unfair" for me to essentially have to pay the full purchase price for a product that, in this case, is indeed being offered at an upgade price, and one that I would certainly otherwise qualify for.

 

Now, to be fair, I have not approached / contacted PC Aviator USA to plead my position and to politely ask if I would be eligible for the upgrade price. They may, for all I know, honor it.  But, that said, it is obvious that I clearly did not actually make my original purchase from them.  They are essentially a different "branch", and are their own entity, despite being "PC Aviator".  So, logic says that they are entitled to the full purchase price from me.

 

All up, this seems to be a kind of "Catch-22" scenario.  I will probably just end up begrudgingly paying the full purchase price.  I don't think I'll even bother to contact PC Aviator USA to ask.

 

This story highlights a different (yet similar) sort of scenario that customers can find themselves in when it comes to having to (unfairly?) pay full price. (In saying all of this, it is acknowledged that the Training Edition is essentially a different product from the Pro Edition, and therefore paying full price does make sense ... but, that's a bit sour when an upgrade offer is/was on the table here if the circumstances were different.)

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by freddy

[Nick Cooper]

4 hours ago, freddy said:

This story highlights a different (yet similar) sort of scenario that customers can find themselves in when it comes to having to (unfairly?) pay full price.

 Hello,
your story appears to reflect the similar fate that befell the FlightSim Store.
Life can be unfair, but there can also be an easy solution.
You need to be contacting the developers, not another retail outlet.
In the case of the FlightSim Store, most developers simply found another outlet and when customers provided their proof of purchase,
granted them a licence at the new outlet instead.
One thing is for sure, if you do nothing, apart from speculate, you will indeed end up paying the full price. 

[John Heaton]

On 5/5/2023 at 5:58 PM, John Heaton said:

Still tilting

 

During many years in senior management in industry - one learns a few things about Marketing - and this is the way that I always saw unsolvable problems.

1 - The customer - is NOT always Right - but he is THE customer

2 - Where there's a will - there's a way!!

 

Sooh - as it stands - should a person who has a PC and wants to move to better Technology e.g. spend $500 on an X Box as an alternative $2000

to an unperforming PC - due to the power loads placed on it- caused by the rapidly increasing sophistication of the principal software MSFS - in scenery

mods and Aircraft specs - moving from default - should he be a victim of the of either Orbx (et al) and Microsoft getting 2 bites of the cherry.?

 

a - Microsoft want to develop its massive investment in MSFS - through  - and in the future of its sim in X box  - which is running 2 years behind the      PC due to Covid Probs affecting the sale worldwide of the console

 

b -The success of the sim cannot be denied and is very much due to 3rd party developers such as Orbx - "repairing" the original default - awful - scenery and Aircraft in many areas over the last 2.5 years - and the growth in the PC version has been great - not to mention the contribution of freeware - by others

 

c - If Microsoft wants to make the x box more agreeable to make to the PC user - to Upgrade to an X Box - then Microsoft needs to re-examine its Marketing stance on duplication - re- buying - of software already purchased elsewhere from its 3rd party colleagues.

The X Box still has the crappy scenery - and will stay that way until someone at MS wakes up to the problem

 

e - Microsoft knows exactly what the customer has on his machines - because on startup  -MS synchronizes - both machines - and it shouldn't be too difficult to perform a check on what is installed in in the PC - purchased from Orbx eg - and not in the X Box. It knows it the other way around and installs it in the PC

 

 

No apologies for repeating above what I laid out earlier - because the effect of such actions by my 2 principal suppliers of my favourite simulator

is important to me

 

Nick suggested that I should make my point directly to Microsoft myself - but my cry in the wilderness will go the way of a previous John - and I

don't have the clout that Orbx has with Microsoft - or other major developers such as Just Flight - Carenado  - and now - PDG  -have demonstrated

recently in their approach to X Box

 

 A lot of the comments here - tend to accept the theory that 3rd party developers are entitled to 2 bites of the cherry most of the time.

OK! - I accept that - on the principal of progress - in the delayed developement of the simulator in X box - and my first love - Orbx!

 

At the same time - Microsoft have to recognise the contribution of  the proliferation of minor developers - in the Flight.to sphere that

has contrbuted to the huge success on the PC

 

Just for example - in my decision to use both my PC and X box in tandem with each other - geographicaly  - as out lined above - in addition to

all the 3rd party offerings - paid for - I built up my PC with a further 220 installs from Flightsim.to amounting to 277 GBs - Oceana - SE Asia and

UK only in addition to my 71 Orbx purchases (I can only imagine what a "Community" section on X Box would bring to the success of X box)

 

Should Orbx and Microsoft wake up to the opportunity - my marketing brain - conjures up -- I dread to think of how much of my O.A.P pension will

be spent on - Asia  - Africa and possibly the Americas into MY X BOX - 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by John Heaton

[Nick Cooper]

11 minutes ago, John Heaton said:

 A lot of the comments here - tend to accept the theory that 3rd party developers are entitled to 2 bites of the cherry most of the time.

 Hello John,
I think that view is not correct.
There is no second bite at the cherry in this case, it is simply that the Xbox system is closed and locked.
If the product is bought at the in-game Marketplace, there is only one bite.
Third-party developers did not implement that system, Microsoft did and as far as I am aware, that closed
system has been in place since the Xbox was invented.
I don't think that it is within the ability of one third-party developer of one Xbox game to make Microsoft
change their entire approach towards Xbox.

 

I don't have any kind of game console but from someone I know who does, the usual approach is to 
install a complete game.
The concept of then adding bits to an Xbox game is a new one and applies to MSFS only.
I stand to be corrected on that one.
 

[wain71]

2 hours ago, Nick Cooper said:

The concept of then adding bits to an Xbox game is a new one and applies to MSFS only.

No this is not new, a couple of examples are Farming Simulator where there are add-ons to buy, also things like Forza to, both are full games just like MSFS however you can add vehicles, maps etc some at cost through the store and some as free dlc, again though through a store......

Look in all honesty this is how Microsoft have set it up, maybe they have more risk if it didn't work so we go one way or the other, I'm considering switching completely to Xbox and upgrading later this year from on S to an X, my biggest worry is what would happen if Microsoft get bored and pull the plug, but I guess that would also effect my PC...

The difference in relation to purchasing for my Xbox is I will only buy where I intend to fly, unlike previously on PC I bought as soon as it came out, so in due course I will probably purchase again stuff I already have on PC but only if I intend to land there and the default is poor....

That's just how it is, if I had patience I would have waited for Xbox version and I would have waited for the X to be available, I'm okay with that though..

Enjoy your flights in whichever box you use...

[wain71]

What would be good would be the ability to purchase Orbx via marketplace and somehow register this on our accounts and get some orbs added, I would use mine for xplane or even p3d... buying the PAC750 xstol from marketplace later for my Xbox...

[John Heaton]

Just taking a look at the General Discussion offerings - I was shattered to see that my thread - i.e. this thread had scored 1.2k views

thus denoting interest in the question.

 

I also noted - in other forums - similar statements of interest in the subject from others - (I did not take part in those discussions BTW)

 

I take that number - to mean it was worth my time - and the probability measure of the importance of my request to Orbx - which has only produced

an interesting series of responses from Orbx  - by the hard-working Nick Cooper - and no other Orbx employee

 

I might just take the time to count the number of Orbx discord notices I have received - promoting new software for the PC - over the same period

that the thread took place - which  - incidently - along with statement by MS for the 2024 new sim - strengthened my decision - to now only

purchase my software for the PC and X box - only from the Marketplace - until Orbx - et al - and Microsoft sort out this doubling purchase anomaly.

 

I say ET al - because I apply the same problem to others beside Orbx - having to pay another $A109 for a B737 - or another $106 for a Just Flight addon- which is just one of 7 Just Flight purchases.

 

It is interesting to see that when the NEW sim comes out - MS state that most of the current softwares will transfer to the new one - but they 

don't say HOW - maybe there will be a mechanism come forth  - that allows the transfer of licenses.

 

If that will be the case - why not now -  for the inceasing number of blokes moving to X Box - because of the now availability to purchase one 

- instead of spending a fortune on a new computer to handle the current sim and what appears to be an upgraded new sim.

Edited June 15, 2023 by John Heaton

[wain71]

I'm only purchasing now from Marketplace to, must make a note of what I have so I don't duplicate...what is really a sad thing for me is this, John started this thread at the beginning of May, lots of points have been raised and some have been answered, but aside from Nick it's like an Orbx ghost town, things have changed, we used to get pre release shots from various posters on here then Iain's 'Final shots' , tick to say it is coming soon, the only updates or acknowledgements I have seen from anyone is Marcus updated on the massive project he is doing for what looks like one ot the most detailed airports I have seen in a long time....

 

I have gone to Xbox now for MSFS, I will use my PC version for JF BETA testing, couldn't justify a new PC yet at the costs, but I will not be buying everything again, I bought the Xstol as I really like flying that plane but airports, no, just new from Marketplace.....

 

Like the ORBS it's all not thought out fantastically well, their restricted in their use, lots have asked for them to be used as part payment for anything but no, just get offered stuff I have or haven't bought because I don't want it....

 

I don't expect nothing to change with regards to what John asked initially, Orbx's hands are tied as Microsoft control marketplace and I believe they would prefer that you could only buy from them, so I suppose we just get on and each of us do what we think is best suited to our personal situation...