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noted ESGG ILS offset since SU4


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As the title states, the ILS for both runways appears to be misaligned or offset since the latest update. See the below as an example:

 

631056505_MicrosoftFlightSimulator28_05_202113_55_17.thumb.png.e95291b443dffece7d121f5403c73e55.png

 

Tried with both Navigraph and default navdata. Result is the same, seems to be a scenery issue. Default scenery is OK.

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4 hours ago, Nick Cooper said:

if the problem was introduced by an update to MSFS, it seems likely that a future update will change it back.

 

So we just have to wait it out on the premise that another Asobo update might sort the issue?

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51 minutes ago, Nick Cooper said:

Hello,

I do see support topics that indicate that ILS have been affected.

If that is the case and I am only surmising, then we will all have to await the next update.

 

Likewise, another one I'd reported is in process of being fixed by the developer (and that was a freeware by by a major publisher). I have to say it's a bit of a shame this is the stance Orbx are taking. Could I suggest it may be more productive to speak with your partners at Asobo and see if this is a mistake or a lasting change? I'd imagine it would be quite disappointing a new customer purchasing this scenery and finding a widely used approach aid is degraded from the default.

 

Thanks,

Rob

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Hello Rob,

I have no more insight into this than you do and it is also clear from the world update

releases that Orbx and indeed all other developers do not have a preview of what is

going to be released.

 

My own working theory is this:

1. There are several working copies of MSFS, in the hands of various developers.

2. There is no master copy that they all contribute to.

3. Each time an update is released, it is released by a different developer and

that developer may or may not have added all the updates and fixes that their

fellow developers have produced.

 

This would explain the otherwise inexplicable implementation and subsequent reversals

followed by a re-implementation of fixes that has been a feature of this simulator since its release.

 

I may be right or wrong but my view is based on what I have seen happen so far.

 

Here is a trivial change, introduce by the latest update (not today's), which tends to support my theory.

For the record, until then all the non-functional switches had the tool tip "Inop".

 

1.jpg

 

I note that this evening, there is an MSFS "hotfix"

 

By the way this is not a "stance that Orbx is taking", it is however applicable to this product.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Nick Cooper said:

Hello Rob,

I have no more insight into this than you do and it is also clear from the world update

releases that Orbx and indeed all other developers do not have a preview of what is

going to be released.

 

My own working theory is this:

1. There are several working copies of MSFS, in the hands of various developers.

2. There is no master copy that they all contribute to.

3. Each time an update is released, it is released by a different developer and

that developer may or may not have added all the updates and fixes that their

fellow developers have produced.

 

This would explain the otherwise inexplicable implementation and subsequent reversals

followed by a re-implementation of fixes that has been a feature of this simulator since its release.

 

I may be right or wrong but my view is based on what I have seen happen so far.

 

Here is a trivial change, introduce by the latest update (not today's), which tends to support my theory.

For the record, until then all the non-functional switches had the tool tip "Inop".

 

1.jpg

 

I note that this evening, there is an MSFS "hotfix"

 

By the way this is not a "stance that Orbx is taking", it is however applicable to this product.

 

 

 


I wasn’t saying you personally, I perhaps wrongly assumed there may be more communication there between someone who is responsible for maintaining your products and Asobo. 
 

I get what you’re saying completely. It becomes confusing as a consumer whereby one developer says one thing and another says another! Hopefully Asobo can get us all on the same level soon. 
 

Thanks,

Rob

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On 5/31/2021 at 7:01 PM, BobbyFuzzy said:

 

Likewise, another one I'd reported is in process of being fixed by the developer (and that was a freeware by by a major publisher). I have to say it's a bit of a shame this is the stance Orbx are taking. Could I suggest it may be more productive to speak with your partners at Asobo and see if this is a mistake or a lasting change? I'd imagine it would be quite disappointing a new customer purchasing this scenery and finding a widely used approach aid is degraded from the default.

 

Thanks,

Rob

 

If a developer fixes something which had been broken by an Asobo update, you can be pretty sure that the next Asobo update will break the developer's fix again.

The past has shown that best practice for fixing issues caused by an Asobo update is just waiting for the next Asobo update which usually fixes those broken things again.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Seems ESMS is also affected, as my yesterday's approach ILS 17 showed same issue.

Will do some further test flights.

Regards, Herbert

Edited by Puukka
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Seems so, thanks for your help, Nick

 

Here´s my todays result, yesterday I´ve tried with FBW A32NX, today CRJ.

 

Regards, Herbert

ESMS RW17.jpg

Edited by Puukka
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4 hours ago, Puukka said:

Seems ESMS is also affected

 

Seems it's both Marcus's products that are affected. Massive shame because they are absolutely beautiful! 

 

1 hour ago, Nick Cooper said:

as I read it, the World Updates are not intended to apply fixes, the Simulator Updates are.

Perhaps we should wait for the next one of those.

 

Likewise. I guess we wait until the next update. 

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Just deinstalled Orbx ESMS, same issue using the default scenery. Definitely no problem of Orbx.

Was Asobo informed about it?

 

Regards, Herbert

ESMS ILS Issue.jpg

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Posted (edited)
On 6/20/2021 at 12:54 PM, Puukka said:

Just deinstalled Orbx ESMS, same issue using the default scenery. Definitely no problem of Orbx.

Was Asobo informed about it?

 

Regards, Herbert

ESMS ILS Issue.jpg

 

Localiser is spot on for me in the default scenery. ESMS - ILS 17.

 

1129917914_MicrosoftFlightSimulator22_06_202110_21_12.thumb.png.72ad5e00f16cb5b42d1680bb4b5901b2.png

 

 

 

This is with Orbx ESMS installed:

 

62592571_MicrosoftFlightSimulator22_06_202110_46_56(2).thumb.png.8df1f7c266a7087233f62d3695a294a4.png

 

 

 

Strange how your results are completely different to mine @Puukka. I notice you have Navigraph navdata also. I've tried the default scenery with both the navdata installed and not - both are fine and aligned with the runway.

 

Are you completely up to date on that? Also using Navdata centre to install/uninstall each time? I used to have some strange results when manually moving the folder from time to time.

Edited by BobbyFuzzy
Comparison with scenery loaded
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Thanks for the report, I've deinstalled the Orbx ESMS but might need to remove/reinstall Navdata afterwards, to gain a difference.

Is this a default ASOBO plane?

Herbert

Edited by Puukka
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11 hours ago, Puukka said:

Thanks for the report, I've deinstalled the Orbx ESMS but might need to remove/reinstall Navdata afterwards, to gain a difference.

Is this a default ASOBO plane?

Herbert


Might be worth a try. Yes it was the default 172. 
 

Rob

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So I have to make a correction, the issue is a connection of the Orbx sceneries and Navigraph data!

 

Installed Orbx ESMS scenery I have the offset. OBS of the NAV shows a fixed course of 173 degrees, instead of the published 169 degrees.

 

820791994_ESMSILSIssueBonanzaOrbx.thumb.jpg.60dd62477b370802638cab71ceef8da2.jpg

 

This time I´ve deinstalled the Orbx ESMS and Navigraph Data using the Center, deleted content.xml started MSFS once, reinstalled Navigrapgh Data and the Localizer was fixed at the correct 169 degrees.

 

1967719588_ESMSILSIssueCRJdefaultscenery.thumb.jpg.5aac2a7f8d7515255b923b5b57c19922.jpg

 

Did someone ask Marcus Nyberg about the issue yet?

 

Thanks and kind regards,

Herbert

Edited by Puukka
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I have dumped Navigraph already a couple of years ago, when it screwed up things for me within XP11.

Anyway, IMO there is no need to use Navigraph in MSFS where nav data are updated every month to the latest cycle by NavBlue.for free.

 

Edited by wolfko
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7 hours ago, Puukka said:

the issue is a connection of the Orbx sceneries and Navigraph data!

 

Hi Herbert,

 

I wouldn't say with all Orbx sceneries. Going back to my original post,  I had tested the localiser at ESGG with both the Navigraph data installed and not and still had the same results with the Orbx scenery.

 

I have not had a chance to ESMS without the NG data yet.

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Yes let's wait, if Marcus might chime in.

MSFS Zendesk closed my ticket but I've read, it means, they've noted it and don't need furrher infos.

Regards,

Herbert

Edited by Puukka
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Just to add to this I can confirm ESMS is offset for me also. Also attached is ESGG for reference.

 

I learnt from a developer that loading my scenery library into LittleNavMap and viewing the ILS beams there is an easy way to see if they are aligned correctly without having to setup an approach.

 

image.thumb.png.b20acce8f5fd2ee8d4387cc1ac6bd5e1.png

 

image.thumb.png.6f6fa438a8d809c9a229184fa5d498c7.png

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5 hours ago, BobbyFuzzy said:

I learnt from a developer that loading my scenery library into LittleNavMap and viewing the ILS beams there is an easy way to see if they are aligned correctly without having to setup an approach.

 

Yes, it is, I told a developer that the other day.

Do I deserve a prize?:)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Bobby

I´ve just installed Little Navmap and the scenery of MSFS was loaded. It shows no offsets, do I have to do different, loading the add-ons extra or something?

I also still wonder, if Asobo will repair a bug, which only shows, when add-ons are installed.

Regards,

Herbert

Edited by Puukka
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Confirmed and that´s the point I ask myself, does Asobo really work on a bug which occurs only with a third parts add on?

Is there a communication between Orbx and Asobo that way at the moment?

 

Offsets I have at Orbx ESGG, ESMS, ENTO, and also ESNU and ESSB from flightsim.to.

 

Here´s ESMS current state together with Orbx.

 

 

ESMS.jpg

Edited by Puukka
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Hi guys,

due a question in our forum, I have tried to analyze the ESGG issue and I have figured out, that the magnetic-variation is wrong in the scenery.

In the scenery, you have a magnetic variation of -1° for both ILSs, but in real you have approx. -4° thats a difference of 3 degrees and therefore the offset during the approach.

 

It´s a simple calculation:

Take the true-runway heading and the mag-runway heading - the difference is the magnetic-variation

 

Here from the AIP Sweden:

 

image.png.46bc3b00dcd09ad3f9f103458b803321.png

 

RWY 03: 22M - 25.98T = -3.98°

RWY 21: 202M - 206T = -4.00°

 

Also, the approach courses are not correct - in the scenery you have for ILS 03 / 23° (in real 22°) and for ILS 21 / 203° (in real 202°).

 

But the real important point here are the wrong mag-var values, which is the cause of these offsets - again, at least at ESGG because I have only analyzed this Orbx scenery.

This is also data independet, means if you use stock data or the Navigraph data. It´s 100% the magnetic variation, which must be corrected!

 

@Orbx please don´t hesitate to contact me, if you need more details or when I can help you in any way ...

 

Thank you,

Richard

-- Richard Stefan / Navigraph Development Team member

 

 

 

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On 7/30/2021 at 12:02 PM, NAVData said:

Hi guys,

due a question in our forum, I have tried to analyze the ESGG issue and I have figured out, that the magnetic-variation is wrong in the scenery.

In the scenery, you have a magnetic variation of -1° for both ILSs, but in real you have approx. -4° thats a difference of 3 degrees and therefore the offset during the approach.

 

It´s a simple calculation:

Take the true-runway heading and the mag-runway heading - the difference is the magnetic-variation

 

Here from the AIP Sweden:

 

image.png.46bc3b00dcd09ad3f9f103458b803321.png

 

RWY 03: 22M - 25.98T = -3.98°

RWY 21: 202M - 206T = -4.00°

 

Also, the approach courses are not correct - in the scenery you have for ILS 03 / 23° (in real 22°) and for ILS 21 / 203° (in real 202°).

 

But the real important point here are the wrong mag-var values, which is the cause of these offsets - again, at least at ESGG because I have only analyzed this Orbx scenery.

This is also data independet, means if you use stock data or the Navigraph data. It´s 100% the magnetic variation, which must be corrected!

 

@Orbx please don´t hesitate to contact me, if you need more details or when I can help you in any way ...

 

Thank you,

Richard

-- Richard Stefan / Navigraph Development Team member

 

 

 

 


thanks! that is super helpful. I’ll send you a pm 

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