Rodger Pettichord Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Hi all. I've just finished watching the Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 September 30 press release. It featured an interview with the development team and numerous alpha-videos demonstrating their new intentions. As is everyone, I am impressed. But, honestly, my first response was, What about ORBX? Surely this 2020 is going to impact the business, and surely it will force major adjustments on the team. So my question at this point is, How can we support and encourage our ORBX guys through all this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotchegg Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 I can totally seeing it changing some things but a) the devs mentioned they were talking to all the big devs you would expect implying Orbx are included, and b) said there were many parts of the world where their data needs augmenting to give a good experience. Having seen some of the photogrammetry up close I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there were actually huge opportunities for Orbx with the new sim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Pettichord Posted October 2, 2019 Author Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 hour ago, scotchegg said: I can totally seeing it changing some things but a) the devs mentioned they were talking to all the big devs you would expect implying Orbx are included, and b) said there were many parts of the world where their data needs augmenting to give a good experience. Having seen some of the photogrammetry up close I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there were actually huge opportunities for Orbx with the new sim. Good thoughts, scotchegg. Thanks for the perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuisong Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 I am sure orbx will be involved in some way. They (MS) talked about enhancing airports etc. I sure hope so. And you can bet they knew that FS2020 was under development long before any of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sawyer Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 They said there will be a subscription cost. I don't want a monthly fee for a flight sim, but if Orbx is involved I'd think twice. The rendered world and physics looked amazing but if they don't have very complex planes I'll sit this one out. I can only ooooh and aaaah with "eye candy" for so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Venema Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Hi guys, I’ll let the developers answer a question that Callum from FSElite asked them: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadtom65 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Hi Jack what did they say about the complex planes, must have missed that bit. Mean I’m not a fan of doing everything by the book like complete startups but now and again I do like to fly the big birds. Plus I’m the same as you about the subscription mean like if it’s £30-40 a month then that will definitely be a no no, unless it’s cheaper maybe. Derek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridvan Celik Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 ORBX make airports too not just landlcass and true earth... There is plenty of room for ORBX in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying_fish Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 No doubt third party developers will be very keen to provide additional content for fs2020 as all indications are that this platform could be a step change in both the fidelity of visuals and experience. It will be interesting to see as this develops whether the additional content is purchased separately from the developer to be saved locally, or whether it will be provided as as a paid extra to the streamed content from Microsoft. A bit like Sky TV maybe... so that 3rd party developers become like the content developers for other media genres. As this rolls out to X-Box, the latter will be presumably the only way third party content could be accessed, opening up a big market for the 3rd party devs maybe... imagine a flash ad coming up in play from Orbx advertising new content for the airport you are parked at, for example? Only saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadtom65 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 It’s still early days yet and no doubt things might change in the coming days months. We will all have to be patient and see how it develops. Know we all want it now and I expect we have all signed up to the Microsoft Insider program. . Derek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernd1151 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 48 minutes ago, Ridvan Celik said: There is plenty of room for ORBX in my opinion. +1! Can you imagine, just a single example, a much better default lay-out of PNG and then we have the redesigned airstrips from Tim and Ken. Wonderful!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aero-3fsx Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 One good thing too is if X-Plane & Prepar3d want to survive they will have to make drastic improvements to at least keep up. Microsoft have resources that few other companies have access to so I think they will gain market share quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yanlaoge Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 They use photogrammetry which looks incredible from high above, but when getting lower we need better models, which leaves a lot of rooms for 3rd party developers as orbx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orbmoke Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Well I watched the whole interview and one of the guys was asked was it going to be a subscription service and he said that it definitely WOULDN'T be. He also said that they were not prepared to talk about how they were exactly going to make money from all this. Presumably that's a reveal for later. One thing for sure, they must have spent large sums on developement as they've been at it about 5 years so far! My first thought was how all this would affect OrbX and I was thinking that it could well be the death knell for them, but then they revealed that they would be including 3rd party developers, so maybe there will be a future for these sim developer companies. The one thing that hasn't really been discussed in all this is minimum hardware requirements for the upcoming MFS 2020 and the resulting frame rate hit. I mean my PC is struggling to maintain the minimum 20fps with OrbX's TE scenery, particularly over the large UK cites, so how it will cope with the new extraordinary detailed scenery in MFS 2020 is anybody's guess! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawrence aldrich Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 56 minutes ago, orbmoke said: The one thing that hasn't really been discussed in all this is minimum hardware requirements for the upcoming MFS 2020 and the resulting frame rate hit. I mean my PC is struggling to maintain the minimum 20fps with OrbX's TE scenery, particularly over the large UK cites, so how it will cope with the new extraordinary detailed scenery in MFS 2020 is anybody's guess! If you invest in the rapidly developing software, it stands to reason that your hardware has to be kept at the level needed to run it. As has been happening for decades,the hardware will eventually catch up..... I don't think a guess is really necessary. You need both. Cheers!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sawyer Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 4 hours ago, Dadtom65 said: Hi Jack what did they say about the complex planes, must have missed that bit. Mean I’m not a fan of doing everything by the book like complete startups but now and again I do like to fly the big birds. Plus I’m the same as you about the subscription mean like if it’s £30-40 a month then that will definitely be a no no, unless it’s cheaper maybe. Derek. That's just it, he didn't say anything, to me it was all a lot of cool physics and eye candy. I haven't seen any PMDG complex level planes yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orbmoke Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 hour ago, lawrence aldrich said: If you invest in the rapidly developing software, it stands to reason that your hardware has to be kept at the level needed to run it. As has been happening for decades,the hardware will eventually catch up..... I don't think a guess is really necessary. You need both. Cheers!!!!!!!!! Yes of course, but to me it's always been that the hardware has lagged the software and so I spent nearly 4 grand about a year ago purchasing what I considered to be the best around at the time barring buying a main frame computer! Here's what I've got: Intel i9-7920X 12 x 2.90GHz (12 core with automatic turbo boost) GeForce RTX2080Ti 11Gb 32Gb RAM DDR4 3000Mz 1Tb SSD M.2 PCle 3Tb HDD USB 3.1 WiFi HDMI 2.0 4K resolution Windows 10 I'm just hoping that it'll be good enought for what's to come! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying_fish Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 27 minutes ago, orbmoke said: I'm just hoping that it'll be good enought If not we are all sunk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikbenik Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 44 minutes ago, orbmoke said: Yes of course, but to me it's always been that the hardware has lagged the software and so I spent nearly 4 grand about a year ago purchasing what I considered to be the best around at the time barring buying a main frame computer! Here's what I've got: Intel i9-7920X 12 x 2.90GHz (12 core with automatic turbo boost) GeForce RTX2080Ti 11Gb 32Gb RAM DDR4 3000Mz 1Tb SSD M.2 PCle 3Tb HDD USB 3.1 WiFi HDMI 2.0 4K resolution Windows 10 I'm just hoping that it'll be good enought for what's to come! No daubt...with such HW bundle...any actual and next year game(+simulator) will show non stuttering fluent images on your 4K display... I wish I had a simular PC-build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orbmoke Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 55 minutes ago, ikbenik said: No daubt...with such HW bundle...any actual and next year game(+simulator) will show non stuttering fluent images on your 4K display... I wish I had a simular PC-build. Yes, but the whole thing is struggling now to maintain 20 fps (with cloud cover) with stuttering over central London and Manchester (UK), especially during 180 deg. turns, although I do have all sliders set to maximum apart from reflections which is set to minimum and the anti-aliasing down a couple of notches from the maximum. No problem with frame rates or stuttering though over Seattle or anywhere over the new TE Washington/Oregon areas - typical 30+ fps in those areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawrence aldrich Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 2 hours ago, orbmoke said: I'm just hoping that it'll be good enought for what's to come! It will not be. For the same fundamental reasons that we build more cars every year despite the fact that we are already over run with them. It's a business....and the reason economies stay alive is by producing. So....simple economics dictate that to stay in business you make new cars even though the old ones are fine. In the 10th or 12th century there was no technological revolution to feed.....so they concentrated on using spears and rocks. You buy the latest hardware to fit the latest software.....whether you need the latest software or not. This concept is how we went from the spear to the discovery that tiny atoms melt whole civilizations if you're not careful. Our species disguises this often flawed idea under the term "progress"...…...or if you prefer "civilization". The spear of flight simming was sharpened by Microsoft years ago. So look out ……….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodger Pettichord Posted October 2, 2019 Author Share Posted October 2, 2019 I'd like to gently bring the thread back to ORBX. My concern with 2020 is that it will hurt the business, and I am thinking of how I will try my best to stand by them if that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernd1151 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Rodger, from what I have read in the last couple of days, I don't think that there will be a reason for us to worry about ORBX's future. Management will have to adjust their business model, less Global, Vector and or landclass scenery, but most definitely more airports, airstrips etc. MS said that the new sim will include about 40.000 airports world wide. Of course they will have a better lay-out than what we saw in default FSX, but they will not be up to what we experience with our beloved ORBX payware airports. Actually I see a bright future for ORBX and us as their loyal customers in the new Flight Simulator. Just my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadtom65 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 48 minutes ago, Rodger Pettichord said: I'd like to gently bring the thread back to ORBX. My concern with 2020 is that it will hurt the business, and I am thinking of how I will try my best to stand by them if that happens. Hi Rodger this what i'm worried about as well, with Orbx doing just scenery, what can they contribute If the scenery your using is actual world scenery. How can you improve on that. By the way there is another 2020 post with a very short video of the weather engine. You say Orbx can do Airports, but surely if its showing actual world airports how can you improve on that. I'm repeating myself. Derek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenicoll Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 I personally watched all the interviews and they all say it is going to be a PC based sim and they are involving all the 3rd party developers AND the community which is exellent. After seeing the trailers, which look amazing I too had first concerns about the add on business. On reflection I feel that scenery developers may well suffer but add on airports will continue. Flight sim 2020 uses bing maps so in the trailers I have seen an "Airport building" supposedly in the correct place but they were all generic white buildings so the airport developers will put a high fidelity correct looking building in the correct place. Just my thoughts though guys. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Clarke Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 4 hours ago, orbmoke said: Yes of course, but to me it's always been that the hardware has lagged the software and so I spent nearly 4 grand about a year ago purchasing what I considered to be the best around at the time barring buying a main frame computer! Here's what I've got: Intel i9-7920X 12 x 2.90GHz (12 core with automatic turbo boost) GeForce RTX2080Ti 11Gb 32Gb RAM DDR4 3000Mz 1Tb SSD M.2 PCle 3Tb HDD USB 3.1 WiFi HDMI 2.0 4K resolution Windows 10 I'm just hoping that it'll be good enought for what's to come! I would suggest that if you are struggling to get 20 fps around some large UK cities, then your settings are too high for those areas. here is no hardware yet that will give 30+fps with ALL settings to far right in the XP settings options. I get 27 over London, the most demanding area with PC specs way below yours. It is a matter of balance. I don't think, from listening to the full videos , that our hardware is as important as our internet speed/connection/bandwidth. There are 3 levels of display, from the full whack with high speed internet, to a lower spec display for slower connections, to an offline cache mode. So it should cater for all specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airwolf Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 I am just excited to see what Orbx will bring for MSFS2020....till then I am so enjoying P3D with my massive Orbx library. I do not understand why people are worrying so much. I can say with high probability that MS probably talked (and still in discussion) with Orbx and few of the major players in the FS scene. Stop worrying; just go do some flight sim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackrat Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 8 hours ago, orbmoke said: Well I watched the whole interview and one of the guys was asked was it going to be a subscription service and he said that it definitely WOULDN'T be. He also said that they were not prepared to talk about how they were exactly going to make money from all this. .. Advertising boards along all the roads and inside airports of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWxTreme Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 6 hours ago, Jack Sawyer said: That's just it, he didn't say anything, to me it was all a lot of cool physics and eye candy. I haven't seen any PMDG complex level planes yet. After listening to the interview I can almost guarantee that PMDG and other third party planes will be made available for Flight Sim 2020. It may not happen right away however. I think you will have Microsoft's own aircraft and then third party aircraft, PMDG, Quality Wings, etc. Also, FS 2020 will also work on lower end systems. They even mentioned testing this on 1080 HD and said it was very impressive. They really emphasized making this work for lower end PC's, although it is always best to have a higher end PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sawyer Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Just now, JWxTreme said: After listening to the interview I can almost guarantee that PMDG and other third party planes will be made available for Flight Sim 2020. It may not happen right away however. I think you will have Microsoft's own aircraft and then third party aircraft, PMDG, Quality Wings, etc. Also, FS 2020 will also work on lower end systems. They even mentioned testing this on 1080 HD and said it was very impressive. They really emphasized making this work for lower end PC's, although it is always best to have a higher end PC. From my own experience playing Xbox and PS4 games I have a more cynical outlook on it. I can imagine Microsoft going to "in-game" purchases. This drives me crazy, I refuse to do this and won't even buy a game if it has in-game purchases. This is why I no longer buy anything from Apple's App Store. And I wonder if 2020 would have in-sim ads like a lot of IOS games do. But this is just pure speculation. So until Microsoft announces a price for its new product we're all left speculating. But if PMDG and A2A as well as Orbx support it then this will definitely get my attention. This will be some very serious competition for Laminar and Lockheed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWxTreme Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 32 minutes ago, Jack Sawyer said: From my own experience playing Xbox and PS4 games I have a more cynical outlook on it. I can imagine Microsoft going to "in-game" purchases. This drives me crazy, I refuse to do this and won't even buy a game if it has in-game purchases. This is why I no longer buy anything from Apple's App Store. And I wonder if 2020 would have in-sim ads like a lot of IOS games do. But this is just pure speculation. So until Microsoft announces a price for its new product we're all left speculating. But if PMDG and A2A as well as Orbx support it then this will definitely get my attention. This will be some very serious competition for Laminar and Lockheed. I have a different opinion. I don't really see that happening with 'in-game' purchases with the planes MS wants to make this foremost as a PC platform. I certainly don't see third party, ie PMDG having 'in-game' purchases. I would find that a huge turn-off. I'm also opposed to a subscription, unless it is very reasonable. I hate another monthly bill. If FS 2020 meets and exceeds the flight sim community's expectations and they make the big switch then I see Lockheed and other platforms taking a really big hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusterman Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Let's get back to the original topic, which was supporting Orbx. It seems pretty simple to me: continue to buy Orbx products for your current simulators and wait for Orbx to tell you about their plans for supporting the new simulator. All businesses need a continual flow of funds to stay in business. Orbx is no different. I do not think either X-Plane or P3D will be going out of business with the advent of this new simulator. Both have commercial applications and the commercial users have lots of money invested in the current simulators. What about Mac and Linux flight sim users? Didn't see that addressed in the interviews. The developers did say that the flight modeling is built on the old base with some aerodynamic addons. Austin Meyer is developing an electric aircraft and using X-Plane to test his design and predict performance of the aircraft, not a goal for MIcrosoft. The last interview on FSElite was with the project leaders, who stated the objective is to use the big data that Microsoft has collected to implement a highly detailed world for flight simulation. They also stated they are committed to work with the vendors who have kept MS based flight simulations alive when Microsoft abandoned the field. JV and his crew are on the job. Buy Orbx products if you want to support Orbx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orbmoke Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 5 hours ago, Jon Clarke said: I would suggest that if you are struggling to get 20 fps around some large UK cities, then your settings are too high for those areas. here is no hardware yet that will give 30+fps with ALL settings to far right in the XP settings options. I get 27 over London, the most demanding area with PC specs way below yours. It is a matter of balance. I don't think, from listening to the full videos , that our hardware is as important as our internet speed/connection/bandwidth. There are 3 levels of display, from the full whack with high speed internet, to a lower spec display for slower connections, to an offline cache mode. So it should cater for all specs. Hi Jon - thanks for your thoughts on my comments. Yes, I agree with what you are saying which reiterates what I was saying about the software always being ahead of the hardware. I may have to come to terms with reducing some of those sliders after all - always been reluctant to do that as, being a scenery geek, I like the best, most accurate and sharpest scenery possible and I was hoping that my hardware would have been good enough to achieve that! Regarding internet speed connection, I have the Virgin Media 150Mb fibre optic cable connection which is pretty damn fast to be honest, so that shouldn't be a bottleneck I would have thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotchegg Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 The more I think about it the more I feel this could be a huge win for Orbx. It seems possible / likely that this sim is at least partially a test-bed for Azure / Bing's feasibility as a full-world simulator platform for business applications as well as entertainment. For many of these applications I imagine photogrammetry and satellite image quality issues won't do, and custom / higher-quality autogen models and experience dealing with the imagery problems are something Orbx is really well set up to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidal Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 As long as the new simulator is designed as an open framework that allows third-parties to jump in without being dependent from Microsoft comercialization method... it shoud be seen as a truly revitalization of the genre. It is not clear to me however where prepar3D and xplane will be left. I suspect many people will refrain from purchasing new addons for these two plattforms in anticipation to what is coming. At least, until they see if their current systems can cope with the requirements needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flying_fish Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 2 hours ago, davidal said: many people will refrain from purchasing new addons for these two plattforms Maybe, maybe not... many own P3D and X-Plane because both have strengths and weaknesses, and chose to fly in the one that suits the mood. That is why any direct comparison between them is not really sensible (and discouraged here!). The interviews by the MS team reveal that they are not only talking to developers but that they accept that there will be areas where 'greater detail' could be provided by third parties. So if Orbx are able to port their products to the new platform than it will be just a matter of where simmers place their allegiance, and whether there will be a cross platform discount, given the not inconsiderable cost of 'starting again'. I do agree that if MS2020 is as good as the previews videos and early reviews suggest then as a platform they may well rise to the top so to speak. But if you are a simmer who flies most of the time in a specific aircraft add-on product you will obviously want to wait until that company makes it compatible. At the same time there are a small number of simmers who still stick to FS2004 or 9 for their own reasons, so let the market decide! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoCares Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 15 hours ago, Jack Sawyer said: I can imagine Microsoft going to "in-game" purchases. This drives me crazy, I refuse to do this and won't even buy a game if it has in-game purchases. Why exactly? Because you are constantly nagged about buying this or that? Being able to buy something from within the game on its own seems a better and more convenient solution than having to go quit the game, go to some site, order something somehow with some account, check your mail, download it, install it, set it up, etc. So in THAT regard it can't drive you crazy, so it seems. Quite the opposite. 12 hours ago, Dusterman said: Let's get back to the original topic, which was supporting Orbx. It seems pretty simple to me: continue to buy Orbx products for your current simulators But why would you if you don't plan on using the current simulators anymore in the future? I don't believe in buying products ONLY to support a business. I won't be using P3D and XP11 in the future anymore, in fact, I stopped using them half a year ago and only have Aerofly FS 2 installed right now. Now even if Orbx WOULD release something new for AFS2 I wouldn't buy it anymore because AFS2 will be gone the day I buy MSFS (or Deadstick). And I certainly wouldn't buy something just to support Orbx. That's an odd thing to do imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F737MAX Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 2 hours ago, Flamingpie said: But why would you if you don't plan on using the current simulators anymore in the future? I don't believe in buying products ONLY to support a business. I won't be using P3D and XP11 in the future anymore, in fact, I stopped using them half a year ago and only have Aerofly FS 2 installed right now. Now even if Orbx WOULD release something new for AFS2 I wouldn't buy it anymore because AFS2 will be gone the day I buy MSFS (or Deadstick). And I certainly wouldn't buy something just to support Orbx. That's an odd thing to do imho. I can't speak for Dusterman, but that's not what I took from his comment. If you want certain add-on developers to still be in business and be in a position to create new products for the new MSFS, then you have to provide them with your money for current generation sim add-ons. Obviously, these current gen add-ons need to be interesting for you to pick them up. I'm not going to be hypocritical, I'm being a lot more selective in what I buy. However, for me, there are still a few products that I want to see in my P3D. I will buy them as there's quite some time before MSFS will be ready with payware airliners and payware airports. However, people shouldn't go around crying if their favourite developer goes bust and their own lack of purchases was part of the cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawrence aldrich Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 1 hour ago, F737NG said: However, people shouldn't go around crying if their favourite developer goes bust and their own lack of purchases was part of the cause. Why? Seems like we cry about everything else these days. No shortage of crying time here in the USA, anyway. Don't know about merry old England, though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DexyRed Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 1 hour ago, lawrence aldrich said: Don't know about merry old England, though? I can assure you that England is not especially merry these days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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