Don't ask if you can't live with the answer

[Rodger Pettichord]

Hi all. The other day, I was in a medical office being checked in by a young woman at the front desk. When she asked for my birth date, I gave her day and month and '43.

The number stopped her cold. "43?" she asked. 

"Yes, in the early part of the war," I said.

That really threw her. After a long puzzled pause, she hesitantly asked, "What war was that?"

At  that very moment, I knew I have outlived myself.

[patful]

...or the US edumacation system has reached a new low.

[Jack Sawyer]

Dang Rodger, first I'm glad you're 76 but good golly, people seem so uninformed as of late.  I'll bet she would know all the latest Hollywood gossip though 

[Rodger Pettichord]

7 hours ago, patful said:

...or the US edumacation system has reached a new low.

Can't argue with that.  Seem to have skipped the basics in a lot of areas.

[Rodger Pettichord]

4 hours ago, Jack Sawyer said:

Dang Rodger, first I'm glad you're 76 but good golly, people seem so uninformed as of late.  I'll bet she would know all the latest Hollywood gossip though 

And I have to admit that she can probably navigate the modern world a lot better than I can. But still...

[FalconAF]

I was born in '54.  In the '60's the year 1900 seemed like ancient history to me. 

 

I now have two niece's from a brother's marriage.  One of them thinks Woodstock is about beavers building dams. 

 

Neither one of them "remembers" anything about the first Man on the Moon landings in '69 - early '70's.

 

If you turn off their GPS's they will get totally paranoid having to drive 3 miles to the nearest Costco, even though they've driven there dozens of times already. 

 

One of them will actually order something from Amazon that is available at their corner store, simply because Amazon will deliver it "before 5 PM today" (they live in a city with an Amazon major Distribution Center in it).

 

Us "old folks" could inherit the world if we just had a way to disable all their electronic "crutch" devices.     

 

[lawrence aldrich]

4 hours ago, FalconAF said:

I was born in '54.  In the '60's the year 1900 seemed like ancient history to me. 

 

I now have two niece's from a brother's marriage.  One of them thinks Woodstock is about beavers building dams. 

 

Neither one of them "remembers" anything about the first Man on the Moon landings in '69 - early '70's.

 

If you turn off their GPS's they will get totally paranoid having to drive 3 miles to the nearest Costco, even though they've driven there dozens of times already. 

 

One of them will actually order something from Amazon that is available at their corner store, simply because Amazon will deliver it "before 5 PM today" (they live in a city with an Amazon major Distribution Center in it).

 

Us "old folks" could inherit the world if we just had a way to disable all their electronic "crutch" devices.     

 

You have two major world wars in one century, kill millions upon millions of your species (among them many of your youngest, best and brightest males) turn procreation of said species over to the remaining weakest and dumbest for decades, replace even your classical music with masterworks such as "we don't need no edumication ,leave them kids alone"  make Steve Jobs your idol for replacing the human brain with a pocket electronic device......and then wonder why we are drifting backward to rejoin the Chimpanzee on the evolutionary ladder??

 

Maybe that's why download speeds are dropping.

 

[patful]

6 minutes ago, lawrence aldrich said:

You have two major world wars in one century, kill millions upon millions of your species (among them many of your youngest, best and brightest males) turn procreation of said species over to the remaining weakest and dumbest for decades, replace even your classical music with masterworks such as "we don't need no edumication ,leave them kids alone"  make Steve Jobs your idol for replacing the human brain with a pocket electronic device......and then wonder why we are drifting backward to rejoin the Chimpanzee on the evolutionary ladder??

 

Maybe that's why download speeds are dropping.

 

 

Exactly. But according to Popeye the Sailor, you misspelled edumacation.

[scottb613]

Hi Folks,

 

And it brings home the quotes:

 

"those that don't remember history are doomed to repeat it"...

 

"strong men create good times - good times create weak men - weak men create bad times - bad times create strong men"...

 

LOL - and I object to the Pink Floyd reference (that's an OLD song) - he wasn't advocating "being uneducated" - I think he was merely objecting to the blind indoctrination of our education system - the enforced conformity with the desired end result of producing yet another cog in the wheel... That's about as deep as I get - LOL...

 

Heck - I'm ex military and usually awestruck when I run across a WWII vet - which is all too seldom these days... I'm not very chatty with strangers - put a WWII Vet or Pilot cap on someone - "Hi - how ya do'n - where did you serve or what do you fly"...

 

Regards,
Scott 

 

 

 

 

[patful]

2 hours ago, scottb613 said:

(that's an OLD song) - he wasn't advocating "being uneducated" - I think he was merely objecting to the blind indoctrination of our education system - the enforced conformity with the desired end result of producing yet another cog in the wheel

 

That ain't old! Heck, I was graduating high school at the time. I think the trend towards more freedom in education started in the 60s-70s, and where did that get us? InfoWars and Twitter as credible sources of history, spelling/grammar, news, and behavior. Rules can be a good thing. A very good thing.

[scottb613]

14 minutes ago, patful said:

 

That ain't old! Heck, I was graduating high school at the time. I think the trend towards more freedom in education started in the 60s-70s, and where did that get us? InfoWars and Twitter as credible sources of history, spelling/grammar, news, and behavior. Rules can be a good thing. A very good thing.

 

Hi Folks,

 

Hah - it sounds like we are of the same era - you might have me by a couple - but not much - psst - we're getting old... 

 

Oh - don't get me wrong - my brain is definitely left side dominant - I'm no fan of the social media soy generations (I recognize my hypocrisy here) - I was just relaying my thoughts on Waters intentions with his song - it was one of the first LP's I owned... Rules and structure are a good thing and I agree the lack thereof is a big part of our problem...

 

Regards,
Scott

[Nick Cooper]

Hello.

 

On the specific topic, my children, my wife and I were taught in detail about the second World War at

school and we all know perfectly well what was happening between 1939 and 1945, as well as Rodger

being born.

My youngest daughter's school took her to northern France  and Germany to visit the sites of some of the

events of both World Wars.

I have always imagined that we are taught these things in an effort to help us learn from history, in the

hope that it never repeats itself, though of course it always does.

 

It would perhaps be useful if we were all born with the wisdom that we amassed over a lifetime

but we are not.

Looking around the world at the moment, there does seem to be clear evidence that it is possible

to progress through life and amass no wisdom at all and yet also evidence that the wisdom of youth is

a real and powerful thing.

 

It is wrong to suggest that someone who does not know what you know is in some way

inferior and certainly that person will know a very great many things that we do not know.

What value those things may have is very much a matter of opinion and is also defined

by the times.

 

The human race has never been able to learn from its mistakes and that will very likely be the root

cause of our demise.

 

 

[Jack Sawyer]

Well said Nick.

[Rodger Pettichord]

27 minutes ago, Jack Sawyer said:

Well said Nick.

Me too. Specially the part about respecting the other.

[lawrence aldrich]

32 minutes ago, Nick Cooper said:

 

The human race has never been able to learn from its mistakes and that will very likely be the root

cause of our demise.

 

 

Very true....   I confess I always thought it would be because we're just plain stupid.

I'll buy your version as well, though.

[david broome]

I almost brought Brexit into the discussion but figured that would be like injecting plutonium into kittens - I will content myself with a sigh and leave this thread in peace.  

[lawrence aldrich]

34 minutes ago, david broome said:

I almost brought Brexit into the discussion but figured that would be like injecting plutonium into kittens - I will content myself with a sigh and leave this thread in peace.  

An alternative is to believe in ancient aliens altering our DNA  to create an amusement for galactic life forms visiting Earth.

Part of a Disney style vacation package.

"See the dumbed down Chimps in their native habitat."

Please do not feed....they get confused easily. 

 

 

[david broome]

1 hour ago, lawrence aldrich said:

An alternative is to believe in ancient aliens altering our DNA  to create an amusement for galactic life forms visiting Earth.

Part of a Disney style vacation package.

"See the dumbed down Chimps in their native habitat."

Please do not feed....they get confused easily. 

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that isn't Sci Fi 

[chris b]

Any surprise considering the answers Jay Leno used to get to questions he asked on the streets? I forget the title of that segment he used to do,

I think it was "Jay Walking". People didn't even know who the Vice President was, at that time, etc..

So much for a well informed citizenry.

[Nick Cooper]

Hello.

 

I think it is quite possible to live a full and interesting life without knowing who the

current vice president of the USA or indeed the deputy prime minister of the UK are.

I don't see not knowing as a matter of concern or indeed a mark of inferiority.

 

I do see a healthy interest in the world around as a likely prerequisite for enjoying life

to its fullest but it need not include things that are generally considered to be de rigeur.

 

In the Jay walking clips, there does seem to be a confusion between stupid being defined

as something that is not known and stupid defined as someone who has trouble processing

information and using it.

 

Jay Leno is seeking to entertain but at the expense of those whose general knowledge is

perhaps limited.

There are many reasons why people are who they are and to assume that someone is stupid

because they do not know something that is generally known is in itelf stupid.

We humans love to mock and mostly do so unthinkingly.

 

 

[Mickel]

13 hours ago, patful said:

 

 I think the trend towards more freedom in education started in the 60s-70s, and where did that get us?

 

umm... when the yearned for ‘golden generation’ were approaching the peak of their political influence (25 in ‘45 made you 50 in 1970).  Ironic?

 

The inter generational argument is centuries old and will go on until one screws it up (& some would argue we’ve passed that point already).  The previous generation would argue they’ve given the next everything they could want.  The next would argue they’ve been set up to fail. The golden generation was set up to suffer by those who took everything they could in the roaring ‘20s.

 

Sorry, these discussions make me a little mad when the simplistic argument blamestorming starts.

 

On a lighter note, I smiled to myself when a teenaged passenger in the car asked whether my car was a manual.  That’s a sign I’m getting on a bit.

[FalconAF]

2 hours ago, Nick Cooper said:

In the Jay walking clips, there does seem to be a confusion between stupid being defined

as something that is not known and stupid defined as someone who has trouble processing

information and using it.

Jay Leno is seeking to entertain but at the expense of those whose general knowledge is

perhaps limited.

There are many reasons why people are who they are and to assume that someone is stupid

because they do not know something that is generally known is in itelf stupid.

 

 

 

Totally agree with everything you said above...except the last 4 words I highlighted.

 

No, it's not stupid to assume someone else is stupid just because they don't know something. It's ignorant.  But when someone says that, THEY will usually get lambasted.  But there is a BIG difference between Ignorance and Stupidity (and most educators know the difference, while most "average citizens" do not).

 

The work "ignorant" is a "trigger word".  It's definition is not generally understood by most people, and if you call someone ignorant they will usually get mad as h*ll at you.  But EVERYBODY is ignorant in MANY ways.  Nobody can know everything there is to know, and EVERYBODY meets the definition of "being ignorant" whether they want to admit it or not.  It simply depends on the topic, and whether they have been educated enough in it to NOT be ignorant about it anymore.

 

Ignorance is defined as, "...a lack of knowledge or understanding of something".  It is not the same as being...or ACTING..."stupid".

 

Stupid is (generally) defined as, "...having or showing a GREAT lack of intelligence or common sense."  The "lack of intelligence" is generally referred to from a MEDICAL perspective, and intelligence is "measured" using standard IQ type of tests (which are questionable within themselves because of possible bias in the testing, etc).  A person who got a college Law degree at a Law school is nor more intelligent (or less intelligent) than a person who got a medical degree at a Medical school.  They both just got "educated" in different specialties. But if neither one of them know how to knit a sweater, then they are Ignorant about knitting, and their Grandma may be considered "less ignorant" than they are about knitting if SHE can knit a sweater.  But that doesn't make Grandma "more intelligent" than either one of them either. 

 

However, the Stupid "lack of common sense" definition can be caused by a variety of other things the person does even using a fully healthy functioning, ALREADY educated in a topic brain.  There are very intelligent people walking around who still do totally Stupid things. 

 

Those in educational disciplines (teachers, instructors, professors, etc) know that Ignorance is cured by Education.  The Education eliminates the lack of knowledge about the subject.

 

After that, Stupid happens if the person who WAS educated (or thinks they already know everything about a topic but don't) continues to use a lack of common sense about the topic.  Education can fix Ignorance.  But as one famous comedian liked to say, sometimes "You can't fix Stupid".

 

[Nick Cooper]

Thanks, however, given the wide range of meanings of the word stupid, I think my statement,

read as I intended, makes sense.

 

There are many reasons why people are who they are and to assume that someone is stupid (unintelligent)

because they do not know something that is generally known is in itself stupid (foolish).

 

 

[lawrence aldrich]

"When my grandpa was 65 he started running a mile every day to keep fit...…..he's 70 now and we have no idea where he is."

 

Hard to argue with that..……………………….

[dominique]

The young lady admitted that she didn't know something that happened long before she was born and asked the OP (Older Person...) about it. Isn't the way to deal with one's ignorance. Admit and ask. She should be commended not mocked.  

 

[patful]

I'm not sure that anyone here is mocking the receptionist. I was commenting on the sad state of education in this country. The Texas school system was horrific back in the 70s. Most of what I learned was on my own until I hit college. My physical science teacher's idea of learning was for us to sit in class and copy the text from our book into notebooks. He took up the notebooks at the end of each semester. If it was full, he gave you an A. My buddy received an F once for filling his notebook with "I love chocolate chip cookies." Reading through my nieces' textbooks nearly two decades later convinced me it's only getting worse. Maybe it's just Texas...

[Rodger Pettichord]

"It is the duty of the young to agitate the old, and the duty of the old to irritate the young."   Don't know who said it.

[Guest]

Some idiot I suspect Rodger.

 

Back on subject, I don't know what history they're taught in schools these days.  I suspect few teachers know history as it affects humanity.  Certainly in my case, they were more concerned with dates events took place rather than what and why they happened and the results.  Crazy, but I put it down to the inadequacy of the teachers teaching them.  My own knowledge came about from an uncle who served and survived in the trenches of the so called first world war and, of course, my own experiences during the second world war.  

 

I personally think history is an important subject only in the hope that it might help to prevent such events happening in the future.  I suspect my hopes are doomed to failure though.  I'm glad to record though that it doesn't look as if my children will experience or be involved in any sort of conflict during their lives.  I hope that's the case.

 

Sorry if I've transgressed into dangerous territory Nick but it got it off my chest.

 

Hello John, just the last sentence.(The one that's missing)

[andy1252]

On 10/2/2019 at 11:44 AM, JohnY said:

I suspect few teachers know history as it affects humanity.  Certainly in my case, they were more concerned with dates events took place rather than what and why they happened and the results.

 

On 10/2/2019 at 11:44 AM, JohnY said:

history is an important subject only in the hope that it might help to prevent such events happening in the future.

 

I absolutely hated History at school. An endless set of "read this chapter and memorise those dates" type lessons from the most boring man in the world (apart from the German teacher, as I remember) who would set us a text and then apparently do a crossword or something similar until the lesson was over.

 

Nowadays I can't get enough of it. Mostly from the late 19th century on, because that's when I feel the modern world started, in the sense that we're all still suffering from the after effects of the end of empires and WWI. And yes, it's not about the events themselves, but the ever fascinating and scary delusions that people suffer from and then inflict on others. There are many noble individuals on this big blue pebble, and always have been, but there are an awful lot of total ****holes too, and they generally seem to be the ones who end up running things (mostly because no sane person would really want to, I guess).

 

Sorry about that. I'll get back under my bridge now.

[Nick Cooper]

That's a shame, I loved History and in fact even managed an average grade A level in it,

despite my lack of application to the task.

Credit for my interest in it goes entirely to my teacher who was as brilliant as yours was

evidently atrocious.

[Rodger Pettichord]

The best history teachers in my experience are those who have lived through it. My European Intellectual History teacher in college was a British intellectual who had been a PT boat skipper in the Channel during WWII. Theory and practice blended in his lectures so vividly that we always hated to see the hour end.

[Nick Cooper]

Hello Rodger,

our syllabus was the British Tudors and Stuarts (1485 to 1714)

Finding someone old enough was evidently too much of a challenge.

[Ken Q]

On 10/5/2019 at 10:52 PM, Nick Cooper said:

Hello Rodger,

our syllabus was the British Tudors and Stuarts (1485 to 1714)

Finding someone old enough was evidently too much of a challenge.

As my wife reminds me, this is an absolutely fascinating period, just full of bloodshed, treachery and sex.

 

I work at a living history museum (website WWW.OBVR Nassau.com if anyone is curious) and our job is trying to help folks, especially children, realize that history is not just kings, politicians and generals, but ordinary people going about their business.  I work in a 200 year old hat manufacturing shop (not very old by English standards, but for a small shop in the U.S., pretty remarkable that it survived).  I try very hard to put the "story" in " history ".

Ken

[Rodger Pettichord]

23 hours ago, Nick Cooper said:

Hello Rodger,

our syllabus was the British Tudors and Stuarts (1485 to 1714)

Finding someone old enough was evidently too much of a challenge.

Nick, try going through the list of folks participating in this Forum thread. You may well find someone who qualifies. 

[flyingleaf]

My sweet wife asked me the other day: Honey what would you like me to do for you when the time comes to you passing. I looked at her and said: Surprise me. 

[Rodger Pettichord]

17 hours ago, flyingleaf said:

My sweet wife asked me the other day: Honey what would you like me to do for you when the time comes to you passing. I looked at her and said: Surprise me. 

You are a braver man than I, John. 

[lawrence aldrich]

On 10/5/2019 at 12:06 PM, andy1252 said:

 

 

Sorry about that. I'll get back under my bridge now.

Here in America we avoid bridges,since like a lot of other things, too many are falling apart.

[Guest]

That's a disappointment Lawrence.  You have destroyed an impossible image I have always had of America.  In the back of my mind I've always thought of everything there as being shiny and new.

[Sniper31]

16 hours ago, lawrence aldrich said:

Here in America we avoid bridges,since like a lot of other things, too many are falling apart.

???? I travel over bridges all the time, without worry or issue. 

[Jack Sawyer]

5 hours ago, JohnY said:

That's a disappointment Lawrence.  You have destroyed an impossible image I have always had of America.  In the back of my mind I've always thought of everything there as being shiny and new.

Where I live John all the bridges are literally shiny and new.  It's not like some third world countries.